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by John2
Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:45 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

But Paul was Jewish, so there is already a precedent for Marcion using Jewish writings. It's baked into Marcionism even if we set aside his gospel (unless Paul wasn't Jewish in Marcionism). So having access to and using a Jewish gospel wouldn't be unusual for Marcion (especially one that was largel...
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:17 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

And it makes more sense for Ebionites to have been influenced by Elxaii since they were all Jewish, rather than Ebionites being influenced by Gentile Christianity or by a document that circulated among Gentiles. But that logic cuts both ways as Marcion's gospel is dependent on a Jewish bedrock to s...
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:38 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

And it makes more sense for Ebionites to have been influenced by Elxaii since they were all Jewish, rather than Ebionites being influenced by Gentile Christianity or by a document that circulated among Gentiles.
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:33 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

As I reread Pan. 30, another thing to consider is that Epiphanius says that Ebionites shared the Nazarene belief that Jesus was a man but that over time they "became associated with Elxai, and they have the circumcision, the Sabbath, and the custom's of Ebion, but Elxai's delusion . Thus they b...
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:47 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

I'm not sure what else there is to say about the texts. What Church writers say about Marcion lines up with the citations you've given of the Ebionite Matthew and the Clementine writings (which are commonly thought to incorporate the other Ebionite writings mentioned by Epiphanius). Why do these sim...
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:14 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

I It sounds like your thoughts are motivated by viewing it as a text that "Marcion" made, then situating the place of "Marcion" in a development of groups where "Marcion" is secondary to Ebionites. It's just the impression I get from what Church writers say. I realize ...
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:43 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

I think it's the other way around and Marcion used the Ebionite Matthew (as did Luke). Is there evidence for the priority of the Gospel of the Ebionites (in Panarion 30) before *Ev or before Luke? It's a deduction based on the Ebionites having branched off from the first Christians (according to Ep...
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:29 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

Epiphanius says the Ebionites branched off from the first Christians (Nazarenes), so it would make sense if their Matthew likewise "branched off" from the Matthew that Nazarenes used.
by John2
Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:00 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?
Replies: 25
Views: 402

Re: Is *Ev a source of the Gospel of the Ebionites?

I think it's the other way around and Marcion used the Ebionite Matthew (as did Luke). This would explain why Marcion and the Ebionites shared similar doctrines, why these gospels resembled Luke, and why Marcon's gospel had some Matthew-like stuff.
by John2
Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:06 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Gospel priority
Replies: 38
Views: 842

Re: Gospel priority

Mark, Hebrew Matthew (which spawned the NT Matthew and Ebionite Matthew), Luke (which used everything in Greek that preceded it) and John.