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by Ben C. Smith
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:58 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Was the Gospel of Mark more like a rough draft or collection of notes than a book?
Replies: 7
Views: 278

Re: Was the Gospel of Mark more like a rough draft or collection of notes than a book?

This article examines the significance the gLuke statement of "an orderly account." Perhaps this was meant to contrast with the gMark's account? https://dspace.nwu.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10394/25339/Fung_WWB_2017.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Thanks for the link. Part of his conclusion is: Benjamin W....
by Ben C. Smith
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:22 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Unfortunately, I am not sure how much weight to accord to the Latin prologues.
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

The fragment in question (Roberts-Donaldson fragment 10) is simply a passage from a medieval manuscript which attributes itself to "Papias" in the margin. But Lightfoot demonstrated decades ago that this passage is to be assigned to a different Papias, Papias of Lombardy. Details are here: http://t...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:20 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

nd it would seem that Peter K is across Papias as much as anyone else, which is why I have been intrigued when his earlychristianwritings Papias page says "I consider the fragment X of the Roberts-Donaldson collection of fragments to be completely suspect as the alleged words of Papias", though hav...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:11 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Was the Gospel of Mark more like a rough draft or collection of notes than a book?
Replies: 7
Views: 278

Re: Was the Gospel of Mark was more like a rough draft or collection of notes than a book?

MrMacSon wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:03 pm
Was the Gospel of Mark more like a rough draft or collection of notes than a book?
I have long thought that Mark may have been just that, a collection of "notes" (so long as we properly understand what is meant in antiquity by "notes"): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3907.
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:20 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

I have read years ago both the 2 books of Vinzent and I have them. Surely I should criticize the style a bit rethoric of the prof but maybe it is only my defect of understanding. I remember that he devoted a lot of pages about that Prologue on Papias/Marcion to make his case. When I have time, I ca...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:19 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Papias
Replies: 19
Views: 1178

Re: Papias

There seemed to have been several competing versions of the end times and the "messianic" kingdom. In some the age on earth is just 400 years, others a millennium, others still saw a heavenly based kingdom. The Talmud lists a few variants on the number of years involved: Talmud, Sanhedrin 99a: It h...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:07 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

I think that Vinzent has detected as probable feature of an anti-marcionite pattern (occurring again and again in writers after Marcion) the appeal to Apostolic Succession and/or oral tradition (in addition to use of scriptures). Then flesh that out. Show me. I have tried to date Papias after Marci...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:06 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

The logic of including Papias' disuse of Marcionite terminology on a list of arguments for Papias postdating Marcion is also specious in the most elementary sense. Papias' use of provably Marcionite terminology would place Papias after Marcion; so how in the name of the seven heavens does his dis us...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:56 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 40
Views: 1758

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

As you like. At any case, I point out here that Vinzent thinks that who preceded Marcion were Jewish Christians. Then that is your answer. If Christians who used the scriptures both predated and postdated Marcion, then obviously the use of the scriptures cannot be used to date Christians with respe...