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by Ben C. Smith
Tue May 21, 2019 7:06 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction
Replies: 48
Views: 2334

Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

So perhaps we could at least take Rom. 15 back to the late second century CE (or even to the late first century CE if 1 Clement counts, as per Ben's citation above). The Chester Beatty papyrus (Ƿ 46 ) already kind of does that. It contains chapters 15 and 16 of Romans and dates, probably, to around...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon May 20, 2019 7:59 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction
Replies: 48
Views: 2334

Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

"...with the exception of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, there is no evidence that any ante-Nicene father quoted from [Romans] 15 and 16..." W.H. Ryder, "The Authorship of Romans XV, XVI" Journal of Biblical Literature (1898), p. 186 So other than the evidence of Clement of Alexandria and Origen...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon May 20, 2019 7:34 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction
Replies: 48
Views: 2334

Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

Peter Kirby has a very good list of discussions of chapters 15 and 16 of Romans, one which I integrated into my treatment of Marcion's texts on this forum a few years ago: On the last two chapters of Romans, see Baur , Weisse , Ryder , Lightfoot , Sanday , Smith , Lake , Goodspeed , Gamble , Kinoshi...
by Ben C. Smith
Sun May 19, 2019 12:59 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction
Replies: 48
Views: 2334

Re: Romans 9-11 & the temple's destruction

In general I am in the camp that thinks Marcion abbreviated Paul's letters (if not necessarily in this case), but I am open to taking another look at arguments to the contrary. In this case, there is no need to summon the shade of Marcion to explain the 14 chapter version. If the longer version of ...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri May 17, 2019 9:40 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Eusebius as a forger.
Replies: 66
Views: 3420

Re: Eusebius as a forger.

I still think the question Ben hasn't answered directly is pertinent (and underscored by all my Michael Jackson and Catholic priesthood analogies). What is a reasonable starting point for doubt with respect to Eusebius? It definitely is a pertinent question. And I have not answered it yet because t...
by Ben C. Smith
Fri May 17, 2019 5:52 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Eusebius as a forger.
Replies: 66
Views: 3420

Re: Eusebius as a forger.

I disagree that "The change to direct speech is a red herring" (and I don't see the point of an Obama analogy). In what way does changing a statement from indirect speech to direct speech constitute misrepresentation? The fact that you do not understand the Obama analogy leads me to wonder whether ...
by Ben C. Smith
Thu May 16, 2019 8:37 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Eusebius as a forger.
Replies: 66
Views: 3420

Re: Eusebius as a forger.

Representation/misrepresentation = William Barr issuing a summary of what is in the Mueller report in a way that may not have been entirely accurate. Impersonation = William Barr actually forging the Mueller report or interpolating extra paragraphs into the Mueller report which Mueller never penned....
by Ben C. Smith
Thu May 16, 2019 8:33 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Eusebius as a forger.
Replies: 66
Views: 3420

Re: Eusebius as a forger.

But is the characteristic Eusebius exhibits in writing the Apology on behalf of Pamphilus (and stealing his name) in order to make Origen seem less like a heretic properly characterized as 'bias' or something more nefarious? I don't think this is like the other examples you give because Origen was ...
by Ben C. Smith
Thu May 16, 2019 7:52 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Eusebius as a forger.
Replies: 66
Views: 3420

Re: Eusebius as a forger.

Eusebius is not passing himself off AS Pamphilus at least in the text that has come down to us. But it is also true that the free flowing style makes it difficult to believe that Eusebius is receiving dictation from Pamphilus either. This is Eusebius pretending to be or assuming what Pamphilus woul...
by Ben C. Smith
Thu May 16, 2019 5:13 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Eusebius as a forger.
Replies: 66
Views: 3420

Re: Eusebius as a forger.

... one of my objections to pegging Eusebius as a/the forger of the Testimonium: Origen, Against Celsus 1.47: .... Josephus... even says, being unwillingly not far from the truth, that these things befell the Jews as vengeance for James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus who is called Christ, sin...