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by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:29 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

Neil, what is your definition of a messiah? Who or by what criteria people of those times - say 100 BCE to 150 AD/CE - might have have been considered to be a messiah? There was a distinct change after the fall of the Temple in the year 70 and it is only then that we find evidence for one heralded ...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:24 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

The fact is: the Hebrew scriptures repeatedly promise the advent of a native ruler — whether a king, a priest, a prophet, a warrior, or some other entity — or perhaps a set of native rulers, who will rule over the children of Israel with justice, restore their fortunes, and either conquer their ene...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:49 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

FWIW, this may be helpful (happy to hear criticisms if or commentary about it), -

Balaam's prophecy as a literary motif, a web-article on Livius.org
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:47 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

Fwiw, here is part of a blog post that sets out what a few scholars have had to say about the "messianic idea" and the term "messiah": < .. snip .. > The post ... addresses the most commonly cited messianic texts in the OT. (The post is part of a 7 or 8 post series setting out the argument of Noven...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:23 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

I think this is pertinent, - . The Hebrew word mâšîah means "anointed one" and can indicate Jewish priests, prophets, and kings. During the sixth century BCE, the exiled Jews in Babylonia started to hope for a special Anointed One who was to bring them home and, in this sense, restore Israel ... Wh...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:06 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

. Reinventing the Future As a response to the Jews' disappointment with the Hasmonaeans, messianism relived. The vague concept of an anointed Davidic prince who would come to restore Israel, was a perfect answer to the situation - especially since nobody knew what kind of restoration was to take pl...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:52 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

Livius's discussions might be a good place to start ...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:49 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:44 pm
What is your own working definition of the term Messiah?
I don't think I've ever had one. Which is why I was and am keen to hear Neil's and others', such as your's.

(I'm beginning to think it may not be any easy thing to do in a concise way)
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:39 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

The issue for me is whether there were accounts that described people is such ways, and it appears that Josephus did with Theudas, at least, - a certain charlatan, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for h...
by MrMacSon
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:20 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Three Assumptions
Replies: 60
Views: 604

Re: Three Assumptions

We have no evidence that anyone in the Second Temple era claimed to be descended from David. Given the claims made by many readers of Josephus about so-called messianic figures in the lead up to 70 that is surely a significant fact. You keep referring to - or implying you are referring to - people ...