Strong Atheism - God and Time

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Cheerful Charlie
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Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Cheerful Charlie » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:51 am

Gid and Time.

In Augustine'ss "Confessions", book 11, Augustine discusses time. His conclusion is that God must have created time because otherwise time would be more powerful than God, but by definition, God is sovereign over all things. That God created time was not new, Plato in his "Timeaus" stated that. A century later, Boethius in his ""Consolations of Philosophy", book 5 stated essentially the same conclusion.

We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once. It follows then that there is no temporal cause and effect, A does not cause B which Causes C. The only connection between A, B, and C is God's creation of them as they are. Everything that exists is similarly existent because God creates every fact of the Universe in "time" knowingly and personally. Again, there can be no free will in this type of Universe.
If Jane does some good act, she does it because God created her doing it. If John does an evil act, John does it only because God created him and all his actions. There is and cannot be any free will in this Universe.

The Universe in the world of a atemporal creator God is logically determinate and free will is utterly impossible for the creations of an atemporal God. Thus all acts of moral evil in this sort of Universe are God's personal and purposeful creation. This contradicts the omni-everything creator God's supposed goodness.

We achieve a second species of omnigenesis. So this as a doctrine leads to disproof of the standard OEC God of Christianity, Islam et al.

What if we abandon the concept of an eternal, atemporal God outside of time? Then time must be more powerful than God and controls and limits God. Time must be outside God and beyond God and God's control.

Time does not exist solely on its own. Physics demonstrates it is entangled with mass, dimension and speed. Two identical objects at different speeds would be observed by an outside observer to have different masses, dimensions and time would pass at different rates for each object, all subject to their speeds.

This then moves mass, and dimension outside of God's creation and control, these things are part of a natural reality not dependent on God, outside of God, nor created or controllable by God.

Naturalism is strongly established, God is superfluous. Time then is a severe problem for the hypothesis of an OEC God.
Theists have to choose one or the other horn of the dilemma.

Along with the problem of a super-omnipotent God, we end up strongly supporting naturalism.

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful Charlie - Strong atheist and jolly well proud of it.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by GakuseiDon » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:41 pm

Cheerful Charlie wrote:We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once. It follows then that there is no temporal cause and effect, A does not cause B which Causes C. The only connection between A, B, and C is God's creation of them as they are.
CC, interesting points! But I wonder if the above is true, or at least a difference that makes no difference. If God creates B because He creates A, doesn't A -- in effect -- cause B? I.e. If God doesn't create A, then He doesn't create B.

The assumption here is that God has created a universe made up of "natural laws", whereby God is constrained through His own volition (i.e. not through necessity) to create B if He creates A.
Cheerful Charlie wrote:Everything that exists is similarly existent because God creates every fact of the Universe in "time" knowingly and personally. Again, there can be no free will in this type of Universe.
If Jane does some good act, she does it because God created her doing it. If John does an evil act, John does it only because God created him and all his actions. There is and cannot be any free will in this Universe.
If God knows what our free-will choices would be, then the universe He creates would be consistent with our free-will choices. Like above, A (Jane's free-will choice) leads to B (God creating a universe where Jane's free-will choice is carried out). I know this fudges the line between free-will choices and determinism, but as I am a compatibilist and believe they can co-exist, I don't see a problem with this.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

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Eric
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Eric » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:49 pm

Cheerful Charlie wrote:Gid and Time.

In Augustine'ss "Confessions", book 11, Augustine discusses time. His conclusion is that God must have created time because otherwise time would be more powerful than God, but by definition, God is sovereign over all things. That God created time was not new, Plato in his "Timeaus" stated that. A century later, Boethius in his ""Consolations of Philosophy", book 5 stated essentially the same conclusion.

We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once. It follows then that there is no temporal cause and effect, A does not cause B which Causes C. The only connection between A, B, and C is God's creation of them as they are. Everything that exists is similarly existent because God creates every fact of the Universe in "time" knowingly and personally. Again, there can be no free will in this type of Universe.
If Jane does some good act, she does it because God created her doing it. If John does an evil act, John does it only because God created him and all his actions. There is and cannot be any free will in this Universe.

The Universe in the world of a atemporal creator God is logically determinate and free will is utterly impossible for the creations of an atemporal God. Thus all acts of moral evil in this sort of Universe are God's personal and purposeful creation. This contradicts the omni-everything creator God's supposed goodness.

We achieve a second species of omnigenesis. So this as a doctrine leads to disproof of the standard OEC God of Christianity, Islam et al.

What if we abandon the concept of an eternal, atemporal God outside of time? Then time must be more powerful than God and controls and limits God. Time must be outside God and beyond God and God's control.

Time does not exist solely on its own. Physics demonstrates it is entangled with mass, dimension and speed. Two identical objects at different speeds would be observed by an outside observer to have different masses, dimensions and time would pass at different rates for each object, all subject to their speeds.

This then moves mass, and dimension outside of God's creation and control, these things are part of a natural reality not dependent on God, outside of God, nor created or controllable by God.

Naturalism is strongly established, God is superfluous. Time then is a severe problem for the hypothesis of an OEC God.
Theists have to choose one or the other horn of the dilemma.

Along with the problem of a super-omnipotent God, we end up strongly supporting naturalism.

Cheerful Charlie
"We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once." This is one belief CC, to say God created ALL in complete form. Not all share this belief.
To become fully human is divine.

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Cheerful Charlie
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Cheerful Charlie » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:57 am

GakuseiDon wrote:
Cheerful Charlie wrote:We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once. It follows then that there is no temporal cause and effect, A does not cause B which Causes C. The only connection between A, B, and C is God's creation of them as they are.
CC, interesting points! But I wonder if the above is true, or at least a difference that makes no difference. If God creates B because He creates A, doesn't A -- in effect -- cause B? I.e. If God doesn't create A, then He doesn't create B.

The assumption here is that God has created a universe made up of "natural laws", whereby God is constrained through His own volition (i.e. not through necessity) to create B if He creates A.
Cheerful Charlie wrote:Everything that exists is similarly existent because God creates every fact of the Universe in "time" knowingly and personally. Again, there can be no free will in this type of Universe.
If Jane does some good act, she does it because God created her doing it. If John does an evil act, John does it only because God created him and all his actions. There is and cannot be any free will in this Universe.
If God knows what our free-will choices would be, then the universe He creates would be consistent with our free-will choices. Like above, A (Jane's free-will choice) leads to B (God creating a universe where Jane's free-will choice is carried out). I know this fudges the line between free-will choices and determinism, but as I am a compatibilist and believe they can co-exist, I don't see a problem with this.
If God creates everything at once in One Big Now He creates all in time and space to the smallest detail. Each such detail is chosen specifically and personally by God. If A, B and C exists, it is because decides he wants A, B and C to exist as it does.

If Jane has the opportunity to steal from her company, it is because God makes that so. If she does in fact steal, it is because the many little parts of reality that together comprise Jane's act of theft are created as they are seperately by God. Jane has no say in any choice God makes. Compatabilism does not work. Compatibilism here is usually known as "Boethius' way out", Boethius thinks we have compatibilist free will. But if God creates all free will simply cannot exist.
In a Universe where God creates all and to the finest possible granularity free will is just logically impossible.

Augtstine,who first raised the issue of God out of time, late in his life admitted the free will was impossible and accepted the doctrine of God's grace being primary.

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful Charlie - Strong atheist and jolly well proud of it.

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Cheerful Charlie
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Cheerful Charlie » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:12 am

Eric wrote:
Cheerful Charlie wrote:Gid and Time.

In Augustine'ss "Confessions", book 11, Augustine discusses time. His conclusion is that God must have created time because otherwise time would be more powerful than God, but by definition, God is sovereign over all things. That God created time was not new, Plato in his "Timeaus" stated that. A century later, Boethius in his ""Consolations of Philosophy", book 5 stated essentially the same conclusion.

We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once. It follows then that there is no temporal cause and effect, A does not cause B which Causes C. The only connection between A, B, and C is God's creation of them as they are. Everything that exists is similarly existent because God creates every fact of the Universe in "time" knowingly and personally. Again, there can be no free will in this type of Universe.
If Jane does some good act, she does it because God created her doing it. If John does an evil act, John does it only because God created him and all his actions. There is and cannot be any free will in this Universe.

The Universe in the world of a atemporal creator God is logically determinate and free will is utterly impossible for the creations of an atemporal God. Thus all acts of moral evil in this sort of Universe are God's personal and purposeful creation. This contradicts the omni-everything creator God's supposed goodness.

We achieve a second species of omnigenesis. So this as a doctrine leads to disproof of the standard OEC God of Christianity, Islam et al.

What if we abandon the concept of an eternal, atemporal God outside of time? Then time must be more powerful than God and controls and limits God. Time must be outside God and beyond God and God's control.

Time does not exist solely on its own. Physics demonstrates it is entangled with mass, dimension and speed. Two identical objects at different speeds would be observed by an outside observer to have different masses, dimensions and time would pass at different rates for each object, all subject to their speeds.

This then moves mass, and dimension outside of God's creation and control, these things are part of a natural reality not dependent on God, outside of God, nor created or controllable by God.

Naturalism is strongly established, God is superfluous. Time then is a severe problem for the hypothesis of an OEC God.
Theists have to choose one or the other horn of the dilemma.

Along with the problem of a super-omnipotent God, we end up strongly supporting naturalism.

Cheerful Charlie
"We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once." This is one belief CC, to say God created ALL in complete form. Not all share this belief.

In the last few decades, many theologians have rejected the God outside of time as seeming incomprehensible, odd as most theologians claim God is in fact incomprehensible. However this presents another problem. If Time is something that limits God, that God must obey, we must inquire where does time come from? What metaphysical necessity makes God subject to time? Science, physics has now demonstrated time is not a stand alone phenomenon. An outside observer watching two different objects in motion would depending on their speeds, see their experience of time varying, along with their mass and dimensions. This establishes a naturalism of a reality outside of God, God's creation or control, points to God as not being either necessary, or creator of all or being as claimed, all powerful.

The problem of God and time becomes a rather severe problem for the concept of an omni-everything creator God. It strongly implies that naturalism must be true, or omnigenesis, no free will and all moral evil being God's doing.

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful Charlie - Strong atheist and jolly well proud of it.

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Eric
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Eric » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Cheerful Charlie wrote:
Eric wrote:
Cheerful Charlie wrote:Gid and Time.

In Augustine'ss "Confessions", book 11, Augustine discusses time. His conclusion is that God must have created time because otherwise time would be more powerful than God, but by definition, God is sovereign over all things. That God created time was not new, Plato in his "Timeaus" stated that. A century later, Boethius in his ""Consolations of Philosophy", book 5 stated essentially the same conclusion.

We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once. It follows then that there is no temporal cause and effect, A does not cause B which Causes C. The only connection between A, B, and C is God's creation of them as they are. Everything that exists is similarly existent because God creates every fact of the Universe in "time" knowingly and personally. Again, there can be no free will in this type of Universe.
If Jane does some good act, she does it because God created her doing it. If John does an evil act, John does it only because God created him and all his actions. There is and cannot be any free will in this Universe.

The Universe in the world of a atemporal creator God is logically determinate and free will is utterly impossible for the creations of an atemporal God. Thus all acts of moral evil in this sort of Universe are God's personal and purposeful creation. This contradicts the omni-everything creator God's supposed goodness.

We achieve a second species of omnigenesis. So this as a doctrine leads to disproof of the standard OEC God of Christianity, Islam et al.

What if we abandon the concept of an eternal, atemporal God outside of time? Then time must be more powerful than God and controls and limits God. Time must be outside God and beyond God and God's control.

Time does not exist solely on its own. Physics demonstrates it is entangled with mass, dimension and speed. Two identical objects at different speeds would be observed by an outside observer to have different masses, dimensions and time would pass at different rates for each object, all subject to their speeds.

This then moves mass, and dimension outside of God's creation and control, these things are part of a natural reality not dependent on God, outside of God, nor created or controllable by God.

Naturalism is strongly established, God is superfluous. Time then is a severe problem for the hypothesis of an OEC God.
Theists have to choose one or the other horn of the dilemma.

Along with the problem of a super-omnipotent God, we end up strongly supporting naturalism.

Cheerful Charlie
"We see time as an illusion, but God sees reality as a Big Now, all exists at once. Since God created all, he created all at once." This is one belief CC, to say God created ALL in complete form. Not all share this belief.

In the last few decades, many theologians have rejected the God outside of time as seeming incomprehensible, odd as most theologians claim God is in fact incomprehensible. However this presents another problem. If Time is something that limits God, that God must obey, we must inquire where does time come from? What metaphysical necessity makes God subject to time? Science, physics has now demonstrated time is not a stand alone phenomenon. An outside observer watching two different objects in motion would depending on their speeds, see their experience of time varying, along with their mass and dimensions. This establishes a naturalism of a reality outside of God, God's creation or control, points to God as not being either necessary, or creator of all or being as claimed, all powerful.

The problem of God and time becomes a rather severe problem for the concept of an omni-everything creator God. It strongly implies that naturalism must be true, or omnigenesis, no free will and all moral evil being God's doing.

Cheerful Charlie
First off Charlie, I am thoroughly enjoying these replies. Just posted on your other thread and came here. Thank you for taking the time to reply. :cheers:

CC: This establishes a naturalism of a reality outside of God, God's creation or control, points to God as not being either necessary, or creator of all or being as claimed, all powerful.
The problem of God and time becomes a rather severe problem for the concept of an omni-everything creator God. It strongly implies that naturalism must be true, or omnigenesis, no free will and all moral evil being God's doing.

For God to control everything is NOT giving us life. To set laws into motion points to a sign of creation. To assume that God wants to control everything would be in line with a dictator. Also, to assume God created the laws in motion to simply 'watch' is an assumption. (I do not believe God is a Large couch potato) ;) .IMF (In my faith) God is the beginning of life and has given us the ability to participate in this great existence of life or not participate.
To become fully human is divine.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by GakuseiDon » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:01 pm

Cheerful Charlie wrote: If God creates everything at once in One Big Now He creates all in time and space to the smallest detail. Each such detail is chosen specifically and personally by God. If A, B and C exists, it is because decides he wants A, B and C to exist as it does.
Agree.
Cheerful Charlie wrote:If Jane has the opportunity to steal from her company, it is because God makes that so. If she does in fact steal, it is because the many little parts of reality that together comprise Jane's act of theft are created as they are seperately by God.
Agree.
Cheerful Charlie wrote:Jane has no say in any choice God makes.
Disagree. My question: Can God create B and C based on what He knows Jane would have freely chosen from A? If so, then Jane does in effect have a say in what God creates.
Cheerful Charlie wrote:Compatabilism does not work. Compatibilism here is usually known as "Boethius' way out", Boethius thinks we have compatibilist free will. But if God creates all free will simply cannot exist.
In a Universe where God creates all and to the finest possible granularity free will is just logically impossible.
If God knows what our free-will choices would be, then the universe He creates would be an expression of that free-will.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

ph2ter
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by ph2ter » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:13 am

How something so complicated, as God is perceived to be, can exist in a timeless domain.
The domains without time and space are infinitely more primitive than the space-time domain in which we live.
Without space-time there is no move. Nothing happens.
How something which lives in a such domain can move or create anything?

Roger Pearse
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Roger Pearse » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:57 am

Cheerful Charlie wrote:Gid and Time.

In Augustine'ss "Confessions", book 11, Augustine discusses time. His conclusion is that God must have created time because otherwise time would be more powerful than God, but by definition, God is sovereign over all things. That God created time was not new, Plato in his "Timeaus" stated that. A century later, Boethius in his ""Consolations of Philosophy", book 5 stated essentially the same conclusion.
Interesting: I wonder what the specific quotations are?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Edit: Augustine's Confessions book 11 is here. A look at the (Victorian) chapter headings makes the point.

Boethius is here and quotes Plato:
Plato wrote:Boethius speaks of people who 'hear that Plato thought, etc.,' because this was the teaching of some of Plato's successors at the Academy. Plato himself thought otherwise, as may be seen in the Timæus, e.g. ch. xi. 38 B., 'Time then has come into being along with the universe, that being generated together, together they may be dissolved, should a dissolution of them ever come to pass; and it was made after the pattern of the eternal nature that it might be as like to it as possible. For the pattern is existent for all eternity, but the copy has been, and is, and shall be, throughout all time continually.'
Boethius wrote:If one may not unworthily compare this present time with the divine, just as you can see things in this your temporal present, so God sees all things in His eternal present. Wherefore this divine foreknowledge does not change the nature or individual qualities of things: it sees things present in its understanding just as they will result some time in the future.

Roger Pearse
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Re: Strong Atheism - God and Time

Post by Roger Pearse » Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:23 am

May I ask what your source for all this information is?

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