Does America Get the Bible Right?

What do they believe? What do you think? Talk about religion as it exists today.

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Secret Alias
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Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

Most people who were born outside this country think the population of the United States are stupider than the stupidest person in the third world. This is a fact. The population here is generally deemed to be retarded.

But is this necessarily so?

Take for instance the criticism of the American love of religion versus what many liberal scholars argue is a 'conflict' with 'the Bible'? Is greed really antithetical to the spirit of the divine revelation to Moses? Is the Torah essentially about 'being fruitful' and 'multiplying' and to this end could someone like Donald Trump or the prosperity gospel really capture at least the essence of the promise of what Moses revealed after the theophany at Sinai?

Now a lot of this certainly develops from what we might call 'anti-Semitic tropes' twisted into something 'positive.' I get that. But if you ignore Jesus and what we might call the 'second revelation' of the God of Sinai to Israel, I think that 'greed is good' might well be compatible with the spirit of Torah. The conflict is Jesus.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

I mean the first commandment - be fruitful and multiply. Someone like Donald Trump might say, yeah I did that.

Joseph is a fruitful bough/son. A guy making a lot of money would say 'yeah, I am a fruitful bough/son.'

There is the bizarre 'agreement' to a practical application of the Torah without any observance of the restrictions or negative commandments. I just find it uncanny. It's almost as if the text was designed to be read this way.

God stands before the primal Man and Woman and says 'X' and then the Fall happens. A bunch of shit happens after that with all sorts of sin and repentance. But the first commandment to humanity would seem to be the overarching one. All the other commandments are in reaction to subsequent transgressions. Odd of course that the 'first commandment' isn't repeated in the 'Ten Commandments.' You'd expect it to be repeated if it was the primary commandment as I am thinking.

But then in a practical application Joseph is acknowledged for his 'fruitfulness.' 'Fruitfulness' continues to be a virtue when Christianity develops in Rome. 'Polycarp' (many fruit) - especially if the same person as Peregrinus - has his greatness attached to the fruitfulness of his (spiritual) harvest. 'You will be known by your fruit' could be twisted into 'how many followers you have' determines your truthfulness, faithfulness etc.

Is there something to this?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

I guess the question is - has the 'Religious Right' who most people think are a retarded bunch of assholes distilled the essence of the religious observance of the Torah (which happens to be an anti-Semitic trope)? Is greed not only good but holy?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

And if all of this is true, you can see what the planet is fucked, right? The strange obsession that these people have with ignoring science about global warming and any progressive reforms to the country (obstructing anything that gets in the way of greed and avarice) will necessarily find a receptive voice in backward farmers and peasants (chosen owing to etymological root in paysant 'country folk'). I mean the more I see it, the country needs to separate and the coastal regions need to starve the backward peasants. We could buy our food from Mexico (which has Roman Catholic peasants so there isn't the same obsession with holy avarice) and Canada. By restricting their ability to sell agricultural products we could in effect kill them off or at least drive them into submission. But that's not the point here. I am trying to understand their obstinacy with respect to the 'sacredness' of greed.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

Needless to say I think the election of President Trump is ultimately a good thing. I think it will lead to the isolation of religious-based teaching and understanding to one segment of the population. I think most of us 'secular' people have kind of 'gone along' with the Bible assuming that there are some 'moral lessons' or 'good' that comes out of the text. I think that will change. The mystery of how American peasants who are broadly more religious than their urban counterparts could have elected Donald Trump is the key. They are just greedy motherfuckers (like the rest of the country I might add) but with the bizarre added element of religious righteousness.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Stuart »

Peter,

Please move this to the General Religious Discussion board where it belongs
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

Is it really that 'generic' a discussion? It's about as 'traditionally Marcionite' as I ever get. You see the same type of discussion in Clement of Alexandria. Jesus said 'do not lust.' Perhaps the early Christian idea was that the ten commandments only prohibits lust of the neighbor. But Philo says no that.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

An example in Clement arguing that the Old Testament is compatible with New:

For it is not suitable to the nature of the thing itself, that they should apprehend in the truly gnostic manner the truth, that all things which were created for our use are good (καλὰ); as, for example, marriage and procreation, when used in moderation (σωφροσύνη); and that it is better than good (καλοῦ δὲ εἶναι ἄμεινον) to become free of passion, and virtuous by assimilation to the divine.

But in the case of external things, agreeable or disagreeable (εὐχρήστοις ἢ δυσχρήστοις), from some they abstain, from others not. But in those things from which they abstain from disgust, they plainly find fault with the creature and the Creator; and though in appearance they walk faithfully, the opinion they maintain is impious. That command, "Thou shall not lust," needs neither the necessity arising from fear, which compels to keep from things that are pleasant; nor the reward, which by promise persuades to restrain the impulses of passion.

And those who obey God through the promise, caught by the bait of pleasure, choose obedience not for the sake of the commandment, but for the sake of the promise. Nor will turning away from objects of sense, as a matter of necessary consequence, produce attachment to intellectual objects. On the contrary, the attachment to intellectual objects naturally becomes to the Gnostic an influence which draws away from the objects of sense; inasmuch as he, in virtue of the selection of what is good, has chosen what is good according to knowledge (gnwstikwu), admiring generation, and by sanctifying the Creator sanctifying assimilation to the divine.

But I shall free myself from lust, let him say, O Lord, for the sake of alliance with Thee. For the economy of creation is good, and all things are well administered: nothing happens without a cause. I must be in what is Thine, O Omnipotent One. And if I am there, I am near Thee. And I would be free of fear that I may be able to draw near to Thee, and to be satisfied with little, practising Thy just choice between things good and things like. [Strom 4.23]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by Secret Alias »

But it is easy to see how the Marcionites would have turned this citation of the gospel around and argued that Jesus was revealing something different. Difficult to reconcile the ten commandments with the new commandment.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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MrMacSon
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Re: Does America Get the Bible Right?

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Prophecy via 1 Thessalonians 4:16

AmKJV:
  • 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Why comfort one another with these words.
Some versions have 'trumpet of God', but a few versions have trump: KJV, KJ2000, American Std, Darby Bible Translation, English Revised, Young'sLT.

YLT:
  • 14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,15 for this to you we say, in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, 16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, 17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; 18 so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.
ERV:
  • 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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