For atheist to answer

[willieH]

The question I ask, is to see what responses are given by atheist. I am not looking to refute the answers, only to observe the replies. The question is simple: How do we know that evil and suffering exists?

Suffering exists because remaining alive necessitates a mechanism to produce the sensation of pain: pain is therefore a protective sensation giving notice of danger. Life is the protective pain of existence and death is the cessation of pain.

(1) -- Do you really believe what you say Beowulf? That LIFE is essentially the vehicle of PAIN, and DEATH is the cessation of both LIFE and the PAIN that it contains?

(2) -- If one is observing from the viewpoint that GOD does not exist, which it appears you do... then LIFE is basically a short (almost too short to even consider that it was a "life"), albeit TORTURE chamber which arrived randomly upon those whom also arrived randomly, and NOTHING makes sense, nor contains REASON... as (as according to the ATHEIST) ALL things came from NOTHING and RETURN to NOTHING. Why bother at all wasting the few moments that you have discussing basically BULL SH__ which is meaningless?

Evil is the name given to the cause of pain; evil is whatever threatens our well-being as determined by the absence of pain. We all are the cause of pain to others at some time or another.

What in the name of NOTHING does it matter, beowulf?

That YOU who came from nothing within the ETERNAL and are on an irreversible jourmey BACK to NOTHING where you shall CEASE to exist, ...is in what way important, and merits the time it takes to discuss it?

The dead are free from pain and are no longer evil: life exits no more, except in morbid fantasies in which the lifeless corpses are punished with pain in hells and the like. Religion is hence an eternal factory of pain and hence evil

(1) -- How can ANYTHING actually be EVIL, beowulf? What determines what is EVIL? What is its measure? Why is it or anything else, worth the bother and time to discuss it?

(2) -- There is no such thing as HELL... Even in "fantasies" which do not exist to begin with! How can there be a HELL, when NOTHING is where everything came from and everything is headed?

(3) -- How is RELIGION an eternal factory of anything, beowulf? If MAN came from nothing and is headed to nothing, then the only "factory" he is headed for, is NOTHING.

PEACE... ...willieH

[Eric]

The question I ask, is to see what responses are given by atheist. I am not looking to refute the answers, only to observe the replies. The question is simple: How do we know that evil and suffering exists?

Suffering exists because remaining alive necessitates a mechanism to produce the sensation of pain: pain is therefore a protective sensation giving notice of danger. Life is the protective pain of existence and death is the cessation of pain.

Evil is the name given to the cause of pain; evil is whatever threatens our well-being as determined by the absence of pain. We all are the cause of pain to others at some time or another.

The dead are free from pain and are no longer evil: life exits no more, except in morbid fantasies in which the lifeless corpses are punished with pain in hells and the like. Religion is hence an eternal factory of pain and hence evil

Thank you for your response Beowulf

[A_Nony_Mouse]

Have you ever put your hand on a pile of suffering? Or perhaps caught a photograph of evil in its natural habitat?

Does an RNC convention count? Sarah Palin skinning a moose?

[beowulf]

The question I ask, is to see what responses are given by atheist. I am not looking to refute the answers, only to observe the replies. The question is simple: How do we know that evil and suffering exists?

Suffering exists because remaining alive necessitates a mechanism to produce the sensation of pain: pain is therefore a protective sensation giving notice of danger. Life is the protective pain of existence and death is the cessation of pain.

(1) -- Do you really believe what you say Beowulf? That LIFE is essentially the vehicle of PAIN, and DEATH is the cessation of both LIFE and the PAIN that it contains?

(2) -- If one is observing from the viewpoint that GOD does not exist, which it appears you do... then LIFE is basically a short (almost too short to even consider that it was a "life"), albeit TORTURE chamber which arrived randomly upon those whom also arrived randomly, and NOTHING makes sense, nor contains REASON... as (as according to the ATHEIST) ALL things came from NOTHING and RETURN to NOTHING. Why bother at all wasting the few moments that you have discussing basically BULL SH__ which is meaningless?

Evil is the name given to the cause of pain; evil is whatever threatens our well-being as determined by the absence of pain. We all are the cause of pain to others at some time or another.

What in the name of NOTHING does it matter, beowulf?

That YOU who came from nothing within the ETERNAL and are on an irreversible jourmey BACK to NOTHING where you shall CEASE to exist, ...is in what way important, and merits the time it takes to discuss it?

The dead are free from pain and are no longer evil: life exits no more, except in morbid fantasies in which the lifeless corpses are punished with pain in hells and the like. Religion is hence an eternal factory of pain and hence evil

(1) -- How can ANYTHING actually be EVIL, beowulf? What determines what is EVIL? What is its measure? Why is it or anything else, worth the bother and time to discuss it?

(2) -- There is no such thing as HELL... Even in "fantasies" which do not exist to begin with! How can there be a HELL, when NOTHING is where everything came from and everything is headed?

(3) -- How is RELIGION an eternal factory of anything, beowulf? If MAN came from nothing and is headed to nothing, then the only "factory" he is headed for, is NOTHING.

PEACE... ...willieH

1) -- Do you really believe what you say Beowulf? That LIFE is essentially the vehicle of PAIN, and DEATH is the cessation of both LIFE and the PAIN that it contains?

I was answering a question. Life is not “essentially” the vehicle of pain, but a great deal more than that.

The capacity to feel the sensation of pain is necessary to protect the integrity of the organism and hence the survival of each individual. Death is the cessation of life, but I decided to focus on one protective mechanism.

Evil was used as meaning nothing more than ‘undesirable’ and the redundancy of the protector of life was taken to mean that life needed nothing.



Buddhism believes that life is Dukkha and Catholics say it is a valley of tears, but I say life is good when pain is idle and stressful when it is warning.

Some humans believe in torturing the dead in hells with endless suffering and have invented gods and karmas for that purpose .It is those inventions which I call morbid fantasies.

Am I an atheist? The question means nothing to me .

[Mental flatliner]

The question I ask, is to see what responses are given by atheist. I am not looking to refute the answers, only to observe the replies. The question is simple: How do we know that evil and suffering exists?

I'm not looking to pose as an atheist, but this is a really odd question considering the following very scientific experiment:

Pinch yourself hard.
Repeat the above instruction until you believe pain and suffering exist.

(Any questions?)

Evil is tougher. Usually, the answer tries to define evil and creates a circular argument. You should be the one to define the word, while we supply the answer.

[corynski]

Greetings Eric and to all,

I've not posted here before, but I am atheist, so I'll have my say. Suffering has been discussed fully I think, and exists to me, it is something I feel because of what has happened..... a death in the family, innocent people being hurt, the pain of hunger, etc.

But 'evil' is much more difficult. I don't like, nor use the word, as it carries religious or supernatural connotations that I don't agree with, a power or force coming from some supernatural being, such as a 'god' or a 'devil'. But an 'evil' action to me is simply an action that is unreasoned, or willfully harmful to someone, or action taken from anger or jealousy. By positing a supernatural 'Being', however reasoned or unreasoned that may be, it gives one license to propose anything, absolutely anything that one can imagine, as the Laws of the deity. For instance, take the removal of female genitalia as practiced in Somalia, one could say that that is an 'evil' sanctioned by Islam, but I would call it simply a grave mistake of Islam, a stupidity espoused by superstitious people following their 'religion'.

Take another extreme case, Hitler. Was Hitler 'evil', or just stupid? I say just plain stupid, and he worked this stupidity until he got so many people believing it that they made reality of it. I confess I can't understand the 'being' of the Christian 'God'. To me, to think of a 'God' is to be flooded with endless questions: From where would a 'God' come from? What is It's Being, what possible 'stuff' could a god be composed of? To say a 'God' is Omniscient or omnipotent means what? Just think of the thousands and thousands of gods and goddesses that have existed since the time when there were 'spirits' - water and wind spirits, spirits of the rocks and caves, etc., etc. It seems that if you believe in the reality of one god you might as well believe in the 'reality' of them all.

No, I don't recognize the existence of 'evil', but I recognize stupidity and ignorance. An example of 'evil' to me might be the following: A priest or a pastor has violated a child sexually, but does he get punished? No. The child may suffer now and for a lifetime, may even pray to God to help them. But does the priest get punished, no, he gets moved to another church...... To me, it would be 'evil' for God not to punish the priest immediately, but let him live to continue his violations. I think religion has done it's time, it's done it's job and it's now up to reason and reality to take the place of wishful thinking and superstition. How can the three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, have the same 'God", but different 'Holy' books? Why won't Jesus or God show up? Wouldn't that help to convince atheists like myself? I remember when I was a teenager I prayed and called upon 'God' and 'Jesus'...... but there was never any answer........

churly

[Peter Kirby]

Hi corynski - or is it churly? - welcome to the forum!

[corynski]

Hello Peter

Yes, I've read some of your writings when I was looking over the site. Looks like a slow period, any idea what's going on?

I'm actually a Charley, but Churly and Corynski both work. I've been looking over the forums lately to see what's current. I'm an old atheist, 76, who enjoys engaging in discussions. My background is anthropology, Berkeley, 1964. After a lifetime of examining religion, I still cannot be convinced there is anything 'supernatural'. Rather I understand the nature of religion as a social organization that has evolved to fill various needs and help ensure the survival of small hunting and gathering groups, such as existed likely in the distant past for thousands and thousands of years. Perhaps it was very 'logical' to ascribe the unknowns of the world to an all powerful 'god' who could move clouds and bring rain. Group cohesion was paramount, what people thought was less important then that they thought the same.

Anyway, that's my guess.....

charley






Greetings Eric and to all,

I've not posted here before, but I am atheist, so I'll have my say. Suffering has been discussed fully I think, and exists to me, it is something I feel because of what has happened..... a death in the family, innocent people being hurt, the pain of hunger, etc.

But 'evil' is much more difficult. I don't like, nor use the word, as it carries religious or supernatural connotations that I don't agree with, a power or force coming from some supernatural being, such as a 'god' or a 'devil'. But an 'evil' action to me is simply an action that is unreasoned, or willfully harmful to someone, or action taken from anger or jealousy. By positing a supernatural 'Being', however reasoned or unreasoned that may be, it gives one license to propose anything, absolutely anything that one can imagine, as the Laws of the deity. For instance, take the removal of female genitalia as practiced in Somalia, one could say that that is an 'evil' sanctioned by Islam, but I would call it simply a grave mistake of Islam, a stupidity espoused by superstitious people following their 'religion'.

Take another extreme case, Hitler. Was Hitler 'evil', or just stupid? I say just plain stupid, and he worked this stupidity until he got so many people believing it that they made reality of it. I confess I can't understand the 'being' of the Christian 'God'. To me, to think of a 'God' is to be flooded with endless questions: From where would a 'God' come from? What is It's Being, what possible 'stuff' could a god be composed of? To say a 'God' is Omniscient or omnipotent means what? Just think of the thousands and thousands of gods and goddesses that have existed since the time when there were 'spirits' - water and wind spirits, spirits of the rocks and caves, etc., etc. It seems that if you believe in the reality of one god you might as well believe in the 'reality' of them all.

No, I don't recognize the existence of 'evil', but I recognize stupidity and ignorance. An example of 'evil' to me might be the following: A priest or a pastor has violated a child sexually, but does he get punished? No. The child may suffer now and for a lifetime, may even pray to God to help them. But does the priest get punished, no, he gets moved to another church...... To me, it would be 'evil' for God not to punish the priest immediately, but let him live to continue his violations. I think religion has done it's time, it's done it's job and it's now up to reason and reality to take the place of wishful thinking and superstition. How can the three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, have the same 'God", but different 'Holy' books? Why won't Jesus or God show up? Wouldn't that help to convince atheists like myself? I remember when I was a teenager I prayed and called upon 'God' and 'Jesus'...... but there was never any answer........

churly

[Mental flatliner]

But 'evil' is much more difficult. I don't like, nor use the word, as it carries religious or supernatural connotations that I don't agree with, a power or force coming from some supernatural being, such as a 'god' or a 'devil'.

Can you explain why Jews are specifically targeted for racial violence in just about every generation they've existed?

Why them?

[Andrew]

Because Christians used the excuse that the Jews in the gospels declared that Jesus' blood be upon them and their children (or some variation of that reason). Thus, they thought they had an excuse.