Self in Theravada

What do they believe? What do you think? Talk about religion as it exists today.
Post Reply
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Self in Theravada

Post by iskander » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:36 am

What is the Buddha ' not saying' ?
From another thread, posted by Ananda
viewtopic.php?f=4&p=66319#p66319
Ananda wrote:"Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?".
It seems that Gautama kept silent because Vacchagotta had asked the wrong question.

User avatar
Ananda
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 am
Location: Hollywood, Florida

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by Ananda » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:59 pm

Letters are fetters of a reality-tethered, but an oral exchange leaves no change! lol

"Pañha Sutta: Questions" (AN 4.42), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (Legacy Edition), 3 July 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html .
~Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by iskander » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:37 am

Cops and robbers : the Self and the no Self

Ven. Sudinna, the story goes, had strong faith in the Buddha and had ordained after receiving his parents’ grudging consent. He was their only child and, though married, was childless. His parents, fearing that the government would confiscate their property at their death if it had no heir, devised various schemes to lure Ven. Sudinna back to the lay life, but to no avail.

Finally, his mother realized that he was firm in his intention to stay a bhikkhu and so asked him at least to have intercourse with his former wife so that their property would have an heir. Ven. Sudinna consented, took his wife into the forest, and had intercourse three times.


Immediately he felt remorse and eventually confessed his deed to his fellow bhikkhus. Word reached the Buddha, who called a meeting of the Community,questioned Ven. Sudinna, and gave him a rebuke.


The Buddha's rebuke :
" Haven’t I in many ways advocated abandoning sensual pleasures, comprehending sensual perceptions, subduing sensual thirst, destroying sensual thoughts, calming sensual fevers?

Worthless man, it would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a poisonous snake than into a woman’s vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a black viper than into a woman’s vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into a pit of burning embers, blazing and glowing, than into a woman’s vagina.

Why is that? For that reason you would undergo death or deathlike suffering, but you would not on that account, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. But for this reason you would, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell….

“‘Worthless man, this neither inspires faith in the faithless nor increases the faithful. Rather, it inspires lack of faith in the faithless and wavering in some of the faithful.’”

The Buddhist Monastic Code I. pg.13ff

User avatar
Ananda
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 am
Location: Hollywood, Florida

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by Ananda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:27 am

Burning embers, blazing and glowing will have an end but the ways of craving extend beyond the bend. 108 you come to see, Mara has a vast army.
~Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by iskander » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:35 am

Mara ... in Buddhism, is the demon that tempted Gautama Buddha by trying to seduce him with the vision of beautiful women who, in various legends, are often said to be Mara's daughters.[1] In Buddhist cosmology, Mara is associated with death, rebirth and desire.[2] Nyanaponika Thera has described Mara as "the personification of the forces antagonistic to enlightenment

Ah Mara the deceiver, the tempter ! She tempted the Perfect-One when he was sitting under the bodhi tree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)
Image

" Pure and clean is your complexion. On account of whom has your renunciation been made, friend? Who is your teacher? Whose doctrine do you profess?”


The Buddha replied:
“All have I overcome, all do I know.
From all am I detached, all have I renounced.
Wholly absorbed am I in the destruction of craving (Arahantship).
Having comprehended all by myself whom shall I call my teacher?
No teacher have I.14 An equal to me there is not.
In the world including gods there is no rival to me.
Indeed an Arahant am I in this world.
An unsurpassed teacher am I;
Alone am I the All-Enlightened.
Cool and appeased am I.
To establish the wheel of Dhamma to the city of Kāsi I go.
In this blind world I shall beat the drum of Deathlessness "

User avatar
Ananda
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 am
Location: Hollywood, Florida

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by Ananda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:03 am

Mara also tempted Stephen and enticed him to write about yours truly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLObtU ... 5A2FC0076A

"And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season" "SEASON"
~KJV

How subtilty cunning!
~Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by iskander » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:43 pm

Ananda wrote:Mara also tempted Stephen and enticed him to write about yours truly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLObtU ... 5A2FC0076A

"And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season" "SEASON"
~KJV

How subtilty cunning!
Self in Theravada

The Buddha condemns the caring son and loving husband to hell.
But who or what will go anywhere after death?

User avatar
Ananda
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 am
Location: Hollywood, Florida

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by Ananda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:32 pm

" The rebuke fell into two major
parts. In the first part, the Buddha reminded Ven. Sudinna of his position as a
sama˚a—a monk or contemplative—and that his behavior was unworthy of his
position. Also, the Buddha pointed out to him the aims of the teaching and noted
that his behavior ran counter to them. The implication here was that Ven.
Sudinna had not only acted inconsistently with the content of the teaching, but
had also shown callous disregard for the Buddha’s compassionate aims in
making the Dhamma known"
___________________________________________________________________________
The second part of the rebuke dealt in terms of personal qualities: those that a
bhikkhu practicing discipline is to abandon, and those he is to develop.
“Then the Blessed One, having in many ways rebuked Ven. Sudinna,
having spoken in dispraise of being burdensome, demanding, arrogant,
discontented, entangled, and indolent; in various ways having spoken in
praise of being unburdensome, undemanding, modest, content,
scrupulous, austere, gracious, self-effacing, and energetic; having given a
Dhamma talk on what is seemly and becoming for bhikkhus, addressed
the bhikkhus.”
This was where the Buddha formulated the training rule, after first stating his
reasons for doing so.
“‘In that case, bhikkhus, I will formulate a training rule for the bhikkhus
with ten aims in mind: the excellence of the Community, the comfort of
the Community, the curbing of the impudent, the comfort of well-behaved
bhikkhus, the restraint of effluents related to the present life, the
prevention of effluents related to the next life, the arousing of faith in the
faithless, the increase of the faithful, the establishment of the true
Dhamma, and the fostering of discipline.’”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... o/bmc1.pdf

Ven. Sudinna was free to disrobe and re-ordain later but would lose some standing in the community.

Hell is closer than we think!. Painful bodily feeling and mental affliction are hell.
_______________________________________________________
"But who or what will go anywhere after death?"

Who or what feels pain and mental distress?
~Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!

iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by iskander » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:48 pm

Thanks Ananda.
The monk broke the rules laid down by Gautama , I understand that, but it is the attachment of the monk to the sensual that which causes his downfall after death . The implication is that the householder can never reach nibana, but he/she will forever remain in samsara.

In the Gita it is the atman which transmigrates , but there is no atta (atman) in Theravada.

What happens after death, in Theravada Buddhism?

User avatar
Ananda
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:36 am
Location: Hollywood, Florida

Re: Self in Theravada

Post by Ananda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:32 pm

"The implication is that the householder can never reach nibana, but he/she will forever remain in samsara"

NO! NO! NO!

One can touch Nibbana at any time dependent on past kamma fading away and present intention striving on in the 8 fold path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ekGfIFRRU0

Past kamma fades away in a similar way habits are broken!
~Oh dear! Oh dear! I shall be too late!

Post Reply