Self in Theravada

[iskander]

"The implication is that the householder can never reach nibana, but he/she will forever remain in samsara"

NO! NO! NO!

One can touch Nibbana at any time dependent on past kamma fading away and present intention striving on in the 8 fold path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ekGfIFRRU0

Past kamma fades away in a similar way habits are broken!

The Self .
Vacchagotta was a monk . When Gautama said he will go to hell-- for making love to his wife ---Vacchagotta would have found this sentence puzzling.Vacchagota may have remembered what nibbana is in reference to atta.


"The words of Nyanatiloka bring up a very important point often asked about Nibbàna: In the absence of a soul, who or what is it that enters Nibbàna? This is a difficult subject.

From what has been said so far in this lecture, we can certainly say that there is no atta or self which realizes Nibbàna. What realizes Nibbàna is insight-wisdom, Vipassanà-panna. It is not the property of a personal or universal self, but is rather a power developed through meditative penetration of phenomena.

Thus Nibbàna, the Absolute Noble Truth, the extinction of all continuity and becoming, the “Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed”. Reality is affirmed without reference to atta"
NO INNER CORE, by Sayadaw U Sãlànanda

What is hell in reference to atta?

[Ananda]

Ajahn Punnadhammo's Dharma Talks
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/8/talk/30534/

We can't talk to well about experience beyond concepts, only how to get there!
Ajahn Sumedho - Kamma And Rebirth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_b1x2_sS80

Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/16/

Ajahn Sucitto - Nibbana Unplugged
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpL4PQrMds

[iskander]

Ajahn Punnadhammo's Dharma Talks
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/8/talk/30534/

We can't talk to well about experience beyond concepts, only how to get there!



Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/16/

Ajahn Sucitto - Nibbana Unplugged
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpL4PQrMds

Ok, fine.
So, how " we get there" is all that matters in Theravada Buddhism as it is also in Christianity , Islam and others.


How to get there in Buddhism. The power of self and the power of the other

Recruits for the self-power school must therefore be endowed with a strong will and a high degree of intelligence. Without intelligence he will not be able to grasp the full significance of the Fourfold Noble Truth, and an intelligent grasp of this truth is most necessary for the sustained exercise of the will-power, which is essential for the performance of the various items of morality as prescribed by the Buddha... . Evil in Buddhist terminology is to ignore the law of causation and the doctrine of karma, for this ignoring involves us in an endless transmigration. Some may wonder how the Mahayana could have expanded itself into the doctrine of pure faith which apparently stands in direct contrast to the Buddha's supposedly original teaching of self-reliance

Daisetz T. Suzuki

PS it is very late in the UK. I will respond tomorrow. God night

[Ananda]

We can't talk to well about experience beyond concepts, only how to get there!

and what we do along the way!

[iskander]

We can't talk to well about experience beyond concepts, only how to get there!

and what we do along the way!

How to get there.

The principle of the 'self-power' school is one of the characteristics of Theravada.

'Self-power' is the spirit of self-reliance, and aims at achieving one's own salvation through the practice of the Eightfold Noble Path which is The Path leading to salvation. Evil in Buddhist terminology is to ignore the law of causation and the doctrine of karma, for this ignoring involves us in an endless transmigration. Self-power, karma, and causality thus are closely correlated terms in Buddhism.


So, is The Path functioning as a cul-de-sac , is it the curse of the law?

It is indeed a curse because there is an innate yearning in our hearts to break up this closely knitted correlation existing between karma, causality, and self-power. This yearning is the primal factor entering into the foundation of the Mahayana teachings, it is human desire to transcend karma, to break through the chain of causation, to take hold of a power absolutely other than 'self-power'.
Daisetz T. Suzuki

[Ananda]

"is it the curse of the law?"

Not knowing the laws of kamma one produces actions of body, speech, and mind that are ignorant of release from dukka.

What kind of "self-power" do ignorant actions have?

The wheel spins on the hub of passion/lust, aversion, and bewilderment!

Ignorance
Craving
I'll will

[iskander]

Works and faith in a Buddhist setting. Trust is the liberating word everywhere.

As long as Buddhism moves in this world demanding the practice of the Eight Paths of Morality , the law of karma is to be most scrupulously followed, for without this law all our moral and ascetic endeavours will come to naught.

But our existence never remains satisfied with the teachings based upon the rigid, inflexible law of karma, it demands teachings more pliable, adaptive, and mobile, that is to say, more living and creative. . Human life is rigorously karma-bound, there is no denying it, and when we disregard this fact, we are a miserable sight.

What the other power tries to do, indeed, what all the schools of the Mahayana try to do is to live this life of karma and relativity and yet to live at the same time a life of transcendence, a life of spiritual freedom, a life not tied down to the chain of causation.
Daisetz T. Suzuki

[Ananda]

"Eight Paths of Morality"

Moral virtue is only 3 aspects of the eight (8) fold path dealing with wholesome;
speech
action
livelihood

"The Noble Eightfold Path: The Way to t ... end.html .

[iskander]

Two different ways of modelling the life beyond .

In Theravada the individual has the power to avoid samsara if he unaided merits salvation . In Mahayana he is not expected to work for his salvation, but can use the merit acquired by the some other. Self-power means man is alone, in the other-power man has a friend.

The Mahayana philosophers have a theory by which they solve the question of immanence and transcendence or which solves the relationship between karma and akarma . This theory, as systematically expounded in Asvaghosha's Awakening of Faith, starts with the idea of Suchness (tathata in Sanskrit).

But the Buddhist idea of Emptiness is not gathered from the negation of individual existences but from the transcendental point of view as it were, for Emptiness unites in itself both fullness and nothingness, both karma and akarma, both determination and freedom, both immanence and transcendence, and jiriki ('self-power') and tariki ('other-power').
The principal Sutra of the Pure Land school is the Sutra of Eternal Life.
Suzuki . of course

[Ananda]

A Theravada and Mahayana, let alone Vajrayana debate is beyond the scope of "Self in Theravada," however, I would be happy to debate such, naturally with a Theravada footing, in another post.