If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

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Gnostic Bishop
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If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

I see Jesus’ death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

Could Jesus’ sin have been suicide?

If not, what do you think his sin was?

Regards
DL
moses
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by moses »

I think claiming to be yhwh in the flesh was blasphemy. the Jews did not have a picture of god in their temple .
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

moses wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:45 am I think claiming to be yhwh in the flesh was blasphemy. the Jews did not have a picture of god in their temple .
Not quite speaking to the O.P. but thanks.

You are correct. The Jewish emblem that Moses uses was a serpent headed staff , which was also the emblem used by the priest class of Levites.

Perhaps that is why Christianity vilified the serpent of Eden. To the Jews, Eden was where man was elevated but Christianity reversed that more intelligent view to our fall so that they could vilify the serpent as well as denigrate women and make them second class citizens with their misogyny.

Regards
DL
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

moses wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:45 am I think claiming to be yhwh in the flesh was blasphemy. the Jews did not have a picture of god in their temple .
As a P.S.

In the Karaite Jew ideology, a Rabbi could even overrule God. That is what cause Jesus to ask, have ye forgotten that ye are Gods.

Most people have but not Karaite Jews and Gnostic Christians like me.

Regards
DL
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Jesus was a sinner, or saw himself as one. He was descended from Adam. He inherited the sin from the first man.

The Gospels tell us that John the Baptist preached to the people, and they came to him to confess their sins, and to seek forgiveness through baptism (Luke 3:3). Jesus too came to John the Baptist to be baptized in the River Jordan (Luke 3:21), so he too must have had sins to confess and seek forgiveness for. The Lord's Prayer with it's 'forgive us our trespassers' and 'deliver us from evil' was taught by Jesus to his disciples. But he got it himself from John the Baptist (Luke 11:1) when he had been his disciple. Therefore Jesus, as a disciple of John, had prayed for his own forgiveness, and been baptized to receive forgiveness (Luke 3:21).

So what specifically were Jesus' sins?

They've been forgiven, so no need to bring them up!! Why do you think the New Testament is so silent about Jesus' early adulthood? We only get the 'sinless' Jesus, either before he was an adult (up to the age of 12) or after he had been baptized by John (as a mature man). Once baptized, he rose from the River Jordan a changed man (Luke 4:1) led by the Holy Spirit to preach, heal, to conquer temptation, and perform miracles. His sins were now behind him.

There is a hint however, that Jesus might have sinned again. When Jesus came out of the River Jordan a spiritual superman, he entered the desert on a marathon of asceticism and fortitude. Satan failed to tempt Jesus on this occasion, but we are told that "when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time" (Luke 4:13).

So when did that opportune time arise? And what were its consequences?
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:06 pm Jesus was a sinner, or saw himself as one. He was descended from Adam. He inherited the sin from the first man.

The Gospels tell us that John the Baptist preached to the people, and they came to him to confess their sins, and to seek forgiveness through baptism (Luke 3:3). Jesus too came to John the Baptist to be baptized in the River Jordan (Luke 3:21), so he too must have had sins to confess and seek forgiveness for. The Lord's Prayer with it's 'forgive us our trespassers' and 'deliver us from evil' was taught by Jesus to his disciples. But he got it himself from John the Baptist (Luke 11:1) when he had been his disciple. Therefore Jesus, as a disciple of John, had prayed for his own forgiveness, and been baptized to receive forgiveness (Luke 3:21).

So what specifically were Jesus' sins?

They've been forgiven, so no need to bring them up!! Why do you think the New Testament is so silent about Jesus' early adulthood? We only get the 'sinless' Jesus, either before he was an adult (up to the age of 12) or after he had been baptized by John (as a mature man). Once baptized, he rose from the River Jordan a changed man (Luke 4:1) led by the Holy Spirit to preach, heal, to conquer temptation, and perform miracles. His sins were now behind him.

There is a hint however, that Jesus might have sinned again. When Jesus came out of the River Jordan a spiritual superman, he entered the desert on a marathon of asceticism and fortitude. Satan failed to tempt Jesus on this occasion, but we are told that "when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time" (Luke 4:13).

So when did that opportune time arise? And what were its consequences?
Hi new guy.

So many assumptions.

What do you mean when you say we inherit sin?

You seem to be a literalist, so tell us what these quotes mean, if not that we do not inherit the sins of another.


Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Further, if Jesus was a sinner as you say and I agree, can a sinner just decide to forgive himself, or is it the victim of that sin that has the ability to forgive it?

Regards
DL
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:38 am Hi new guy.

So many assumptions.

What do you mean when you say we inherit sin?
Hello Gnostic Bishop,

Nice to be here. What assumptions have I made?

I didn't say 'we' inherit sin. I said Jesus did, or saw himself as having done so.

Regarding your two Old Testament quotes (you give Ezekial 18:20 twice).

Deutronomy 24:16 is concerning human laws - it is not lawful for a man to be executed by other men for the sins of another.

But God can judge otherwise;

Exodus 20:5-6 - “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:6-7 - The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

Jeremiah 32:17-18 ‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you. You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them"

These passages are saying that when it comes to God's commandments, those who follow them will be loved, but those who don't will be punished as will their descendants.

So what about Ezekial 18:20?

The whole of Ezekial chapter 18 is referring specifically to the House of Israel, from the first verses

"The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying, 'What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?'" (18:1-2),

to the last

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. (18:30-32)

The passage in Ezekial is thus a conditional promise from God to the House of Israel, - if you promise to follow my laws, I will judge you by your individual merits. Its a bargaining chip. The previous passages in Jeremiah and Exodus are being modified. As God said to Isaiah “I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake," (Isaiah 43:25). God acts in his own interests.

But all these passages have nothing to do with inheriting sin. They are about inheriting guilt - that is, being held accountable for the judgement passed on others. Someone is guilty because they sinned, and that guilty judgement is passed down the generations. The act that the father committed is nowhere said to have been repeated in the children, only the consequences of it.

Inheriting sin, on the other hand, is about the innate propensity of men to do evil;

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord said in his heart, "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Ecclesiastes 9:3 Yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Proverbs 22:15 15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Thus the argument is that men are born to sin and thus suffer and die, but God gave them Laws and if they follow them they will have salvation. What we are born with, we inherit from our parents. If Jesus descended from Adam, then he inherited this propensity to sin from Adam.
Last edited by Nasruddin on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:38 am The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
This is not a Biblical declaration. Sin is not passed down. The guilt is.

Moral justice is relative. The Biblical inheritance of guilt is little different than the modern historical reparations made by one group of descendants to another group of descendants for the 'wrongs' that their respective ancestors did to each other. The 'hurt' and the 'guilt' have been inherited.
Last edited by Nasruddin on Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:38 am Further, if Jesus was a sinner as you say and I agree, can a sinner just decide to forgive himself, or is it the victim of that sin that has the ability to forgive it?

Regards
DL
That is an interesting question, and I would answer "No", if what you do creates consequences that affect other people in a harmful way.

But the question is relative to what you would call a 'sin'. In the case of Jesus, I would assume here that we are talking about breaking religious codes, so a sin Jesus committed would be one judged as such by his community or religion. Breaking a religious law did not always result in a victim (working on a Sabbath, blasphemy, eating unclean food, etc) unless you class the victim as the community that is offended by your actions, or the Law itself which is violated, or God whom you have disobeyed.

So in this context, could Jesus forgive himself? We know there are passages where he violated some Laws and seemed unconcerned, so he must have forgiven himself those. Some theologians also interpret his words to mean that he claimed to be the Law, if not God himself. So he certainly felt he could excuse himself, which amounts to the same thing.

Since you agree with me that Jesus was a sinner, what sins do you think he committed?
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:23 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:38 am Hi new guy.

So many assumptions.

What do you mean when you say we inherit sin?
Hello Gnostic Bishop,

Nice to be here. What assumptions have I made?

I didn't say 'we' inherit sin. I said Jesus did, or saw himself as having done so.

Regarding your two Old Testament quotes (you give Ezekial 18:20 twice).

Deutronomy 24:16 is concerning human laws - it is not lawful for a man to be executed by other men for the sins of another.

But God can judge otherwise;

Exodus 20:5-6 - “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:6-7 - The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

Jeremiah 32:17-18 ‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you. You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them"

These passages are saying that when it comes to God's commandments, those who follow them will be loved, but those who don't will be punished as will their descendants.

So what about Ezekial 18:20?

The whole of Ezekial chapter 18 is referring specifically to the House of Israel, from the first verses

"The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying, 'What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?'" (18:1-2),

to the last

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. (18:30-32)

The passage in Ezekial is thus a conditional promise from God to the House of Israel, - if you promise to follow my laws, I will judge you by your individual merits. Its a bargaining chip. The previous passages in Jeremiah and Exodus are being modified. As God said to Isaiah “I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake," (Isaiah 43:25). God acts in his own interests.

But all these passages have nothing to do with inheriting sin. They are about inheriting guilt - that is, being held accountable for the judgement passed on others. Someone is guilty because they sinned, and that guilty judgement is passed down the generations. The act that the father committed is nowhere said to have been repeated in the children, only the consequences of it.

Inheriting sin, on the other hand, is about the innate propensity of men to do evil;

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord said in his heart, "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Ecclesiastes 9:3 Yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Proverbs 22:15 15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Thus the argument is that men are born to sin and thus suffer and die, but God gave them Laws and if they follow them they will have salvation. What we are born with, we inherit from our parents. If Jesus descended from Adam, then he inherited this propensity to sin from Adam.
So your biblical quotes automatically have more force than mine. Ok.

That means we waste our time quoting the bible and can just pop into a moral discussion of substitutionary atonement or punishment.

Morals, after all, is what religion is supposed to be all about.

Let's get right to your/my personal view and see if it matches the God's, which you are to emulate.

Let me paste an older reply that I wrote.

Human sacrifice is evil and God/Yahweh demanding one and Jesus accepting one is evil. Jesus accepted the premise of his sacrifice being somehow just. This is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL
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