If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:51 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:38 am The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
This is not a Biblical declaration. Sin is not passed down. The guilt is.

Moral justice is relative. The Biblical inheritance of guilt is little different than the modern historical reparations made by one group of descendants to another group of descendants for the 'wrongs' that their respective ancestors did to each other. The 'hurt' and the 'guilt' have been inherited.
My children bear no guilt for my sins and if you think yours should feel guilty for yours then you are not stepping up to your own responsibility for your sins.

Sins can be forgiven. If your victims of your sin to go to your children and forgive them for your sins is a silly idea and should be answered with a --- kiss this and shove your forgiveness as I am innocent of what you are forgiving.

Do look at those quotes you discarded again for the first time.

Retards
DL
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

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Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:51 pm Moral justice is relative.
I agree and that is why your objective blanket statement are wrong.

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DL
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

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Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:53 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:38 am Further, if Jesus was a sinner as you say and I agree, can a sinner just decide to forgive himself, or is it the victim of that sin that has the ability to forgive it?

Regards
DL
That is an interesting question, and I would answer "No", if what you do creates consequences that affect other people in a harmful way.
I do not agree but the answer as to why is rather long and complex. Read what follows and see what you think of the logic.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.


Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
But the question is relative to what you would call a 'sin'. In the case of Jesus, I would assume here that we are talking about breaking religious codes,


My thinking is not controlled or led by religions as most of them are quite missogynous and homophobic and a poor place to find morality.
so a sin Jesus committed would be one judged as such by his community or religion. Breaking a religious law did not always result in a victim (working on a Sabbath, blasphemy, eating unclean food, etc) unless you class the victim as the community that is offended by your actions, or the Law itself which is violated, or God whom you have disobeyed.
Jews used to stone people for working on the Sabbath as that went against what they thought their God demanded. Even Jesus was threatened with stoning for claiming to be God.
So in this context, could Jesus forgive himself?
Yes, just like you can if you repent of the act and give restitution if you can.

I am a Gnostic Christian and universalist and recognize that we are as we are thanks to all those who have contributed to what we are. That means that we all share the blame for all being who we are.

Take Hitler. Was he born evil? No. He was made to be what he ended as by all those who contributed and facilitated in him becoming what he ended up being. Right?

So all those people should also bear some of his punishment. Right?
We know there are passages where he violated some Laws and seemed unconcerned, so he must have forgiven himself those.


Indeed. Not that I think of Jesus as just being a fictitious archetype of a good man.
Some theologians also interpret his words to mean that he claimed to be the Law, if not God himself. So he certainly felt he could excuse himself, which amounts to the same thing.
Indeed, but with his own interpretation of what God is.

I see more than one Jesus in scriptures and I follow the one whose way of thinking is shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Key quotes are these.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Let me add these as you likely follow the lawyers.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Since you agree with me that Jesus was a sinner, what sins do you think he committed?
His fit at the temple for one and the moral advice he gave on a number of topics including his no divorce policy for women and the substitutionary atonement policy that Christians attribute to him in his Yahweh persona.

This link speaks of other poor moral policies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfGRN4HVrQ&t=5s

Regards
DL
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 am So your biblical quotes automatically have more force than mine. Ok.

That means we waste our time quoting the bible and can just pop into a moral discussion of substitutionary atonement or punishment.
Was it a competition? I'm sure you noticed that my quotes were more numerous, were placed within a better context, and had a balanced argument around them. But since our common source is no longer a valid basis for your argument, why quote it at all?
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 am Morals, after all, is what religion is supposed to be all about.

Let's get right to your/my personal view and see if it matches the God's, which you are to emulate.

Let me paste an older reply that I wrote.

Human sacrifice is evil and God/Yahweh demanding one and Jesus accepting one is evil. Jesus accepted the premise of his sacrifice being somehow just. This is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.
So we've jumped from 'was Jesus a sinner' to 'human sacrifice is evil'! And despite your requirement to stop 'wasting time' by quoting the Bible, you still want to extrapolate from Biblical interpretations which cannot be justified without that very quoting. And you said I made assumptions?
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 amImagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
So we are establishing that should a man receives no punishment for his crimes, that is no excuse to punish someone else who had nothing to do with it.
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 amFor me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
All very valid questions.
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 amHaving another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL
I agree that the guilty going unpunished is not a good outcome. But I'm not following the argument of how any of this shows that God punishes the innocent instead of the guilty.
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:03 am My children bear no guilt for my sins and if you think yours should feel guilty for yours then you are not stepping up to your own responsibility for your sins.

Sins can be forgiven. If your victims of your sin to go to your children and forgive them for your sins is a silly idea and should be answered with a --- kiss this and shove your forgiveness as I am innocent of what you are forgiving.

Do look at those quotes you discarded again for the first time.

Retards
DL
You mean those Biblical quotes that you think are a waste of time?
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:05 am
Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:51 pm Moral justice is relative.
I agree and that is why your objective blanket statement are wrong.

Regards
DL
My objective blanket statement was to the response that a sinner cannot forgive himself. I still stand by that, with the proviso I included.

Do you believe a sinner can forgive himself, without the need for any other input?
Nasruddin
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Nasruddin »

Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:32 amHis fit at the temple for one and the moral advice he gave on a number of topics including his no divorce policy for women and the substitutionary atonement policy that Christians attribute to him in his Yahweh persona.

This link speaks of other poor moral policies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfGRN4HVrQ&t=5s

Regards
DL
Those are good suggestions for receiving his wages of sin. Jesus had been given a baptismal cleansing and confession from John, so whatever sins he had committed between the age of twelve and when he joined John's ministry would (according to John's teaching) have been forgiven. So it was a new sin(s) after the time in the Wilderness that we would look for.

I cannot recall, but do you know where in the Gospel narrative Jesus started talking about his own death? And where he asked God for forgiveness? Those would be two stages where he was aware that his death was approaching due to his sins.

But I don't know why you are judging Jesus for his poor moral policies. We agreed in your previous post that moral justice is relative, so why are you judging the pass?
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:14 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 am So your biblical quotes automatically have more force than mine. Ok.

That means we waste our time quoting the bible and can just pop into a moral discussion of substitutionary atonement or punishment.
Was it a competition? I'm sure you noticed that my quotes were more numerous, were placed within a better context, and had a balanced argument around them. But since our common source is no longer a valid basis for your argument, why quote it at all?
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 am Morals, after all, is what religion is supposed to be all about.

Let's get right to your/my personal view and see if it matches the God's, which you are to emulate.

Let me paste an older reply that I wrote.

Human sacrifice is evil and God/Yahweh demanding one and Jesus accepting one is evil. Jesus accepted the premise of his sacrifice being somehow just. This is evil.

Those trying to profit from that evil are evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.
So we've jumped from 'was Jesus a sinner' to 'human sacrifice is evil'! And despite your requirement to stop 'wasting time' by quoting the Bible, you still want to extrapolate from Biblical interpretations which cannot be justified without that very quoting. And you said I made assumptions?
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 amImagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
So we are establishing that should a man receives no punishment for his crimes, that is no excuse to punish someone else who had nothing to do with it.
That's the plan, yes.
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 amFor me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
All very valid questions.
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 amHaving another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL
I agree that the guilty going unpunished is not a good outcome. But I'm not following the argument of how any of this shows that God punishes the innocent instead of the guilty.
Was Jesus guilty of anything and did God not send him to suffer and dies for us, the guilty?

Was that moral of God?

Regards
DL
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:18 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:03 am My children bear no guilt for my sins and if you think yours should feel guilty for yours then you are not stepping up to your own responsibility for your sins.

Sins can be forgiven. If your victims of your sin to go to your children and forgive them for your sins is a silly idea and should be answered with a --- kiss this and shove your forgiveness as I am innocent of what you are forgiving.

Do look at those quotes you discarded again for the first time.

Retards
DL
You mean those Biblical quotes that you think are a waste of time?
When you ignore them, yes.

Regards
DL
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Re: If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:24 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:05 am
Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:51 pm Moral justice is relative.
I agree and that is why your objective blanket statement are wrong.

Regards
DL
My objective blanket statement was to the response that a sinner cannot forgive himself. I still stand by that, with the proviso I included.

Do you believe a sinner can forgive himself, without the need for any other input?
Yes.

Can a murderer repent and forgive himself?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Note how one is saved through repentance alone, which I equate with self-forgiveness.

Do you see it that way and if not, how do you read that quote?

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Does this last not say that all of us are saved or do you think that God's will that all be saved can be thwarted?

Regards
DL
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