Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

What do they believe? What do you think? Talk about religion as it exists today.
Nasruddin
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Nasruddin » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:10 pm

Can I take it that share the first stance? -

"Any further debate into your OP on God's actual motivation or short comings will need accepting the Genesis story as if it involved active characters who behaved with reason, emotion or faith. That will involve examining the story itself and looking at its internal dynamics based on its internal context. Doing that might itself involve questioning the accuracy of what the story reports, and the motive for presenting the story in the way it is presented."

User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:16 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:10 pm
Can I take it that share the first stance? -

"Any further debate into your OP on God's actual motivation or short comings will need accepting the Genesis story as if it involved active characters who behaved with reason, emotion or faith. That will involve examining the story itself and looking at its internal dynamics based on its internal context. Doing that might itself involve questioning the accuracy of what the story reports, and the motive for presenting the story in the way it is presented."
Many Christians believe this story literally, talking serpent and all and that is why I write as if I also literally read it.

If I want to play in their field, I have to use their ball.

I prefer to do that, in a way, because it is the literal reading of this myth that Christians use to further their misogyny against women, and I would like to reduce that injustice if I can.

I do prefer the Jewish view, that being a yarn of a rite of passage into adulthood.

Regards
DL

Nasruddin
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Nasruddin » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:09 pm

So you actually take the second stance -

"However, if you are wanting to examine the morals of the Genesis story (rather than fallibility of God) in comparison to other moral standards, then the Genesis story was a creation to justify or explain a particular community's social dynamics or philosophy. As situations have changed since then, the debate is whether the story can still be used to justify or explain certain social dynamics/philosophies (which might have changed, or been replaced by new ones), and whether those social dynamics/philosophies (original or not) are worth supporting anyway."

User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:24 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:09 pm
So you actually take the second stance -

"However, if you are wanting to examine the morals of the Genesis story (rather than fallibility of God) in comparison to other moral standards, then the Genesis story was a creation to justify or explain a particular community's social dynamics or philosophy. As situations have changed since then, the debate is whether the story can still be used to justify or explain certain social dynamics/philosophies (which might have changed, or been replaced by new ones), and whether those social dynamics/philosophies (original or not) are worth supporting anyway."
You cannot separate the morals of Genesis and the fallibility of God, when immorality in Genesis belong to God.

If he is immoral there, then all his judgements are suspect.

The particular community's social dynamics or philosophy being demanded is God's and that too becomes suspect, especially when women have been denigrated and discriminated against from that time on.

That makes God's morals unsupportable. Quite an important thing. No?

There are good reasons behind us Gnostic Christians calling God a vile demiurge.

Regards
DL

Nasruddin
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Nasruddin » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:12 am

The morals in the Bible are not reliant upon God, but upon the authority invested in God by humans. God's morals in Genesis are indeed supportable by those who see that God's authority as important. God, in such an equation, is infallible and moral, and therefore he is not oppressive or discriminating but just and merciful.

Why do you quote Genesis, yet continually talk about Christians?

User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:32 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:12 am
The morals in the Bible are not reliant upon God, but upon the authority invested in God by humans.


Morals have their own value as all ideas have, or have not. If we follow what scriptures advise, we determine their worth regardless of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

That quote says to hold to what is good and not hold to what God holds to.
God's morals in Genesis are indeed supportable by those who see that God's authority as important. God, in such an equation, is infallible and moral, and therefore he is not oppressive or discriminating but just and merciful.
Indeed, but one would have to see authority and kowtowing to it as more important than following good moral thinking.

Many Christians do so and that is why they end in following a genocidal son murdering prick.
Why do you quote Genesis, yet continually talk about Christians?
Because it is a great coming of age story when properly interpreted the way the Jews did when they called it our elevation.

The Christians interpreted it poorly and call it our fall.

That is the problem with literal reading of myths. You miss the moral of the story.

What do you read? Our fall or our elevation?

Regards
DL

Nasruddin
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Nasruddin » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:09 pm

Fall or elevation, the narrative still has Eve being ruled over by Adam due to her actions. If your point is that the Christians invented the story, how come its in the Hebrew Tanakh?

User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:44 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:09 pm
Fall or elevation, the narrative still has Eve being ruled over by Adam due to her actions. If your point is that the Christians invented the story, how come its in the Hebrew Tanakh?
One issue at a time my friend.

Do you see a fall or elevation.

We can look at the historicity after I see what you think of the sin of gaining knowledge or disobedience of a command to stay living without the knowledge of good and evil, which is a moral sense.

Regards
DL

Nasruddin
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Nasruddin » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:56 am

If you cannot yet tell me why you think the story is an invention of Christians, and what the 'real' story might have been. then I can only go with the narrative that I have in the Hebrew Scriptures, which seems no different from the Christian one.

I read a story that helped to explain life as it was a few thousand years ago for a particular community living with a certain set of social norms and principles. Within the narrative as presented humans obtained knowledge through eating forbidden fruit. Once eaten they shared it and then denied responsibility for their actions. Various curses/denials were placed upon them by God due to their actions - the toil of agricultural life and the battle against weeds, child birth pangs, men ruling over women yet women not going off and forming a community of their own, animals with no legs who bite humans,denial of immortality, etc. These 'curses' were what interested that particular community.

There was no choice in the story. It is there to explain the life of the community, not a true narrative of actual events with active characters. Discussing the moral behaviour of God is the wrong focus. We might as well discus the moral behaviour of Prometheus. It only has the meaning that a particular set of believers place upon it.

I see a story where knowledge was forbidden, but gained anyway. I see a story that says decisions come with consequences. I see a story that says do what God says or you will be sorry.

If you are asking whether I think a life of immortal innocence is better than a short life with knowledge, then I think the first is impossible, so there is no choice to make.

User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:31 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:56 am
If you cannot yet tell me why you think the story is an invention of Christians, and what the 'real' story might have been. then I can only go with the narrative that I have in the Hebrew Scriptures, which seems no different from the Christian one.

I read a story that helped to explain life as it was a few thousand years ago for a particular community living with a certain set of social norms and principles. Within the narrative as presented humans obtained knowledge through eating forbidden fruit. Once eaten they shared it and then denied responsibility for their actions. Various curses/denials were placed upon them by God due to their actions - the toil of agricultural life and the battle against weeds, child birth pangs, men ruling over women yet women not going off and forming a community of their own, animals with no legs who bite humans,denial of immortality, etc. These 'curses' were what interested that particular community.

There was no choice in the story. It is there to explain the life of the community, not a true narrative of actual events with active characters. Discussing the moral behaviour of God is the wrong focus. We might as well discus the moral behaviour of Prometheus. It only has the meaning that a particular set of believers place upon it.

I see a story where knowledge was forbidden, but gained anyway. I see a story that says decisions come with consequences. I see a story that says do what God says or you will be sorry.

If you are asking whether I think a life of immortal innocence is better than a short life with knowledge, then I think the first is impossible, so there is no choice to make.
Well put and correct.

We already know as a fact that the Christian narrative was plagiarized from Jewish writings. I agree.
The Jewish messiah was to be an angel and not a man who was to rise again to lead the Jews. Man or angel, he was to return in their day.

Christianity thus had to make up the Jesus narrative and is a fiction. You seem to recognize that.

You are correct that there was no choice to make. That is why any punishment towards us is wrong and evil.

That is God erring.

Regards
DL

Post Reply