Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

What do they believe? What do you think? Talk about religion as it exists today.
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Gnostic Bishop
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Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm

Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other and is responsible for many honor killings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvdqNU8rX4

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments;, veils hijabs, or beards are three examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

The Golden Rules or some form of reciprocity exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable. In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging or forcing people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, including forcing various apparel, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

andrewcriddle
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:53 am

SCOTUS held in a confusing 5-4 majority decision, (Only 3 justices really supported the reasoning of the court but 2 concurred with the result on other grounds), that the state can force people to wear clothes in public.

Andrew Criddle

Iphigeneia
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by Iphigeneia » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:33 am

What is Scotus?

andrewcriddle
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:01 am

Iphigeneia wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:33 am
What is Scotus?
Supreme Court Of The United States

Andrew Criddle

nili
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by nili » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:51 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm
I believe that obliging or forcing people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, including forcing various apparel, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.
Would that include forcing them not to where certain apparel?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:44 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:53 am
SCOTUS held in a confusing 5-4 majority decision, (Only 3 justices really supported the reasoning of the court but 2 concurred with the result on other grounds), that the state can force people to wear clothes in public.

Andrew Criddle
As it should. Public safety demands it.

That law has a just cause. Why are you comparing it to where there is no just cause?

Regards
DL

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:46 am

nili wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:51 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm
I believe that obliging or forcing people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, including forcing various apparel, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.
Would that include forcing them not to where certain apparel?
If there is no just cause, yes.

If we are to force our citizens to follow laws, those laws have to be justified.

Regards
DL

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DCHindley
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by DCHindley » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:13 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm
Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other and is responsible for many honor killings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvdqNU8rX4

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments;, veils hijabs, or beards are three examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

The Golden Rules or some form of reciprocity exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable. In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging or forcing people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, including forcing various apparel, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL
We might find restrictions to dress, such as veils and burqas, hard to justify in modern western society, yet there was a time when womens', and mens', dress was quite a bit more conservative than we enjoy today.

But what about groups such as the Amish and other Old Order Mennonites who are to be found in great abundance in Holmes & Geauga counties of Ohio, and in various counties in eastern Pennsylvania, USA? Women generally wear plain dresses in lite blue or lite earth tones (the Beachy Amish being an exception), white or black bonnets, with the men wearing denim pants, lite color shirts, and the ever present straw hat. Women wear black clogs or even work boots, no makeup, no fancy hairstyles (hair in a bun is about it). They believe that modesty and humility is to be preferred, They also don't drive cars (horse drawn buggies, black, period), or even have phones (in the home) or electric fixtures (their houses are wired, but only to meet building codes), although some Mennonite orders do allow cars, electricity and things like computers, but only in black or white and for work only, not for entertainment.

If you were to ask them, they do not feel constrained by these restrictions at all. I know of them because I live near and often work in Geauga county, Ohio, but they exist in any places with lots of farm land (most are farmers, using teams of horses pulling plows, etc.) like Russia, Ukraine, Canada, Mexico, etc. So I can understand Muslims who live with similar restrictions. These type people have adopted ways that, in many respects, are lifestyle choices. A Muslim in Turkey or even Malaysia or Singapore, are free to live more "relaxed" lives, but there are always fundamentalists of all religions who would kill those who cut their beards, or women who uncover their hair, etc.

DCH

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:12 am

DCHindley wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:13 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm
Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

I ask this question, because forcing people to do so, seems to go against the notions of freedom, liberty, equality and fraternity. It is an insult to our fiduciary duty to each other and is responsible for many honor killings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIvdqNU8rX4

In many countries, be it a religious, political or social custom; women and men are forced to wear particular garments;, veils hijabs, or beards are three examples of this.

Does this practice of using force go against our fiduciary duty to women and men?

The Golden Rules or some form of reciprocity exists in most religions and cultures.

No one likes to be forced to do anything, this is irrefutable. In some cultures, force is used to have men and women kowtow to the culture or religion. This is a poor and immoral ideology.

I believe that obliging or forcing people to submit to any political, social or religious norm, including forcing various apparel, --- without a just cause, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL
We might find restrictions to dress, such as veils and burqas, hard to justify in modern western society, yet there was a time when womens', and mens', dress was quite a bit more conservative than we enjoy today.

But what about groups such as the Amish and other Old Order Mennonites who are to be found in great abundance in Holmes & Geauga counties of Ohio, and in various counties in eastern Pennsylvania, USA? Women generally wear plain dresses in lite blue or lite earth tones (the Beachy Amish being an exception), white or black bonnets, with the men wearing denim pants, lite color shirts, and the ever present straw hat. Women wear black clogs or even work boots, no makeup, no fancy hairstyles (hair in a bun is about it). They believe that modesty and humility is to be preferred, They also don't drive cars (horse drawn buggies, black, period), or even have phones (in the home) or electric fixtures (their houses are wired, but only to meet building codes), although some Mennonite orders do allow cars, electricity and things like computers, but only in black or white and for work only, not for entertainment.

If you were to ask them, they do not feel constrained by these restrictions at all. I know of them because I live near and often work in Geauga county, Ohio, but they exist in any places with lots of farm land (most are farmers, using teams of horses pulling plows, etc.) like Russia, Ukraine, Canada, Mexico, etc. So I can understand Muslims who live with similar restrictions. These type people have adopted ways that, in many respects, are lifestyle choices. A Muslim in Turkey or even Malaysia or Singapore, are free to live more "relaxed" lives, but there are always fundamentalists of all religions who would kill those who cut their beards, or women who uncover their hair, etc.

DCH
Thanks for this.

You did not answer the question though.

Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Most churches and mosques are run by men who impose dress codes and decide on what the punishment will be for infractions. In Islam, to the point of Honor Killing.

Is there any honor in using force to have people comply with un-proven religious customs, or killing the women who refuse?

Regards
DL

nili
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Is it honorable to force men or women to wear veils or any particular garment?

Post by nili » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:26 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:12 am
Most churches and mosques are run by men who impose dress codes and decide on what the punishment will be for infractions. In Islam, to the point of Honor Killing.
With how many mosques are you familiar?

I live relatively near five mosques, have visited all of them, and have met women from all of them. There is zero reason to believe that any of them dictate a dress code for women in public, much less advocate "Honor Killing." Your rhetorical question is little more that bigotry proffered in a disingenuous (if not cowardy) way.

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