He's saying that Jesus' death was a statement of solidarity, God is expressing his solidarity with humanity by becoming human and dying at the lowest level of society, a victim of human sin and political oppression. The political aspect wasn't brought out much in the NT becuase they didn't think in political terms, even though the Messiah's role was conceived of politically as a liberator.
So God is not being defeated, he's participating with humanity in it's most dramatic consequence so that he can identify with us and with our needs. Then because we place ourselves into that death and establish solidarity with him he establishes it with us and we share in the power of his resurrection and his future. this is expressed clearly by Paul in Romans.
what did crock say? god died by death taking over him but was not defeated? i dont understand english very well please explain this crock.
you don't want to understand do you? you trying to say it in a screwed way to make it seem screwed that's because you don't want the answer.
toejam wrote:The Trinity is one big embarrassing cop-out IMO. From my experience, when you ask the average self-professing "Christian" in the street how the Trinity works, they will tell you a view of it that would have been regarded as heretical in the days that it was being formulated (and probably still is according to the official positions of the major Christian denominations). Most Christians I've found will give you a PART+PART+PART=WHOLE analogy, which is not how it's supposed to work. i.e Most Christians don't understand it. And even the ones that do acknowledge that it's a "mystery" that isn't supposed to make sense. In my opinion the Trinity was simply a cop-out to appease competing views. Christians desparately wanted to uphold the prestige of declaring "monotheism", while at the same time they desparately wanted to say that Jesus was God... the problem being that in the Gospels, Jesus and "The Father" are clearlly two separate characters. Solution? Let's just say that 3=1 and pretend no one noticed!
There is an infinite number of even numbers There is an infinite number of odd numbers . There is an infinite number of rational numbers.
one infinity of Even numbers+ one infinity of odd+ one infinity of rational = one infinity of natural numbers
one infinity of even numbers = one infinity of natural numbers
can you have three oranges in a bowl without going ":O man three bowls of fruit is it three bowls or one it[\s crazy stuff!"
three of one thing (identities) in one of another (essence) there is no mathematical problem. It's not saying three is one i's saying three thing shares f something else. we see that all the\ time.
Metacrock wrote:the creeds were established as means of defining Christian identity. the Creeds set the Trinity in place as a doctrine. So historically being a Trinitarian comes to be synonymous with being a Christian.
The reason this explanation is weak is because Jesus, not creeds, established Christian identity.
Being born again = Christian identity, and there are no doctrines that can ever supersede this personal event.
I agree with you about the spiritual reality but I was talking about the churches' reaction years after the Apostles were gone to issues they did not address. I said the reason they made the doctrine was to define identity. Yes Jesus said be born again but gnostics also claimed to be born again they had have specific answers to questions jesus did not tell them about.
There is more to the word trinity then appears. The word trinity basically mean three. Understanding the process of the three involves in understanding scriptures and what it teaches about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father sent his Son embodied by the Father. Another words, the Father dwelt within Christ when he walked here on earth. When Jesus hung on the cross he said my Father why have you forsaken me. You see up to the cross Jesus and the Father were together, at the cross they were separated. then Jesus said after he was gone he would send the Holy Spirit and only speak of those things told him to say by Jesus. You see you have a chain of command. The Father, sent his Son and the Son sends the Holy Spirit. They are three yet they are one meaning they are of one mind and accord. It was Jesus the Saviour that died on the Cross, he suffered death for everyman by being separated from the Father. Hopes this helps. if you want a more clearer answer go to
dveler2255 wrote:There is more to the word trinity then appears. The word trinity basically mean three. Understanding the process of the three involves in understanding scriptures and what it teaches about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father sent his Son embodied by the Father. Another words, the Father dwelt within Christ when he walked here on earth. When Jesus hung on the cross he said my Father why have you forsaken me. You see up to the cross Jesus and the Father were together, at the cross they were separated. then Jesus said after he was gone he would send the Holy Spirit and only speak of those things told him to say by Jesus. You see you have a chain of command. The Father, sent his Son and the Son sends the Holy Spirit. They are three yet they are one meaning they are of one mind and accord. It was Jesus the Saviour that died on the Cross, he suffered death for everyman by being separated from the Father. Hopes this helps. if you want a more clearer answer go to
"Trinitas" is a Latinization of the Greek "he trias" (the Triad), a term first used by Theophilus of Antioch in his Ad Autolycum 2.15 to refer to God, God's Logos (Jesus), and God's Sophia (Holy Spirit). It seems to have been picked up by Tertullian and used in his Adversus Praxean.
I'm pretty sure I've seen reference to tripartite entities in Judaism, or other religions (or both), earlier that those guys used it.
He suffered death for every man means this. Paul wrote that Christ submitted himself unto death , even the death of the cross. He is speaking that Christ had suffered two deaths. We understand the death of the cross but what was the other. You have a first death which is the cross and the second death was the spiritual death. AS Christ hung on the cross and said the words "My God My God why have you forsaken me" This is the second death. That is to be separated from the Father. This is why Christ cried so much in the Garden just before they took him. He was afraid because for the first time he was going to experience the second death. A lot of people believe that God turned his back on Christ because he could not look upon Christ because he could not look upon the sin Christ was suffering for. They say can not look upon sin. This is not true. there are to mny scriptures showing God Speaking to people like Adam and Moses and many others. When a person understands what SIN is then they would understand the forgivenss of sin. There is one Sin that sends people to Hell. The people of Christ's day and even now don't understand what that Sin is. The Father said he would send his Holy Spirit and He would teach us what that sin was.
Hope this helps
dveler2255 wrote:He suffered death for every man means this. Paul wrote that Christ submitted himself unto death , even the death of the cross. He is speaking that Christ had suffered two deaths. We understand the death of the cross but what was the other. You have a first death which is the cross and the second death was the spiritual death. AS Christ hung on the cross and said the words "My God My God why have you forsaken me" This is the second death. That is to be separated from the Father. This is why Christ cried so much in the Garden just before they took him. He was afraid because for the first time he was going to experience the second death. A lot of people believe that God turned his back on Christ because he could not look upon Christ because he could not look upon the sin Christ was suffering for. They say can not look upon sin. This is not true. there are to mny scriptures showing God Speaking to people like Adam and Moses and many others. When a person understands what SIN is then they would understand the forgivenss of sin. There is one Sin that sends people to Hell. The people of Christ's day and even now don't understand what that Sin is. The Father said he would send his Holy Spirit and He would teach us what that sin was.
Hope this helps
If a person understood what eternal life is than they would know if they are saved or not. To live forever is the most common answer but that is only a by-product of eternal life. You see a person will live forever in hell as well as heaven. I have a website that speaks of truth if you interested. I have a website if you interested in it email me send me a private message and I'll send the link If you would like to read what eternal life is. What is Sin and many other topics.
dveler2255 wrote:If a person understood what eternal life is than they would know if they are saved or not. To live forever is the most common answer but that is only a by-product of eternal life. You see a person will live forever in hell as well as heaven. I have a website that speaks of truth if you interested. I have a website if you interested in it email me send me a private message and I'll send the link If you would like to read what eternal life is. What is Sin and many other topics.
