My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

What do they believe? What do you think? Talk about religion as it exists today.
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Eric
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by Eric » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:11 am

Tommsky wrote:
Eric wrote: I believe in the teachings of Christ not Christianity
What did Christ teach? In Mark's gospel he teaches precious little, only crumbs about fasting, the sabbath, divorce and how to be a first-century follower.

If the sermons in later gospels were authentic and important why aren't they mentioned in Mark, the source of events they were required to draw upon?

St Paul doesn't seem to know what Jesus taught other than on divorce.
There are many Gospels and writings outside of the Christian/Judea Bible on the Life of Christ and his teachings. Qu-Ran has teachings of Christ. There are many sources that share viewpoints and teachings of Christ in addition to other ancient philosophies and teachers. This website, is a great place to witness some of the writings. Simply put, to base an existence and teachings solely on 4 selected gospel writings and a handful of Paul's Epistles and coming to a conclusion from that alone, is not what I would call 'in-depth research and/or study' of an individual.
To become fully human is divine.

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spin
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by spin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:46 am

Eric wrote:Analysis as you state is something one does in one's head and I agree. When one seeks God with all their means, heart (aka inner feelings) soul and mind, God will not fail to provide them with knowledge.
Many people who seek god find something. They go to India and find divine awakening. They go to Mecca and find enlightenment. They fall on their knees and pray and find forgiveness. But what exactly do they find? If you start off with a conclusion, you will often find it. Unless you take precautions that will help you analyze the results, you won't really know what you have found. Things we find within ourselves have no necessary connection to the world outside us. It could easily be a load of hogwash, but because you have a conclusion that you are seeking--you are after all seeking god, so you know where you want to go--, you may have no ability to see anything but that conclusion.

All knowledge of the world comes to us through those ugly senses with which we experience the world and that includes possible knowledge of god. What we see with our eyes. What we hear. That is the only way we get information about the world outside. If we read books we are getting coded or elaborated information which we unpack the best we can through our learning, which shapes our understanding. The knowledge we get from books is purely theoretical. Its relation to the world needs to be established through experience, ie interaction with the world, interaction that you are able to repeat and verify through others repeating it.

What makes you think a priori that there is a god? The idea goes against all means we have of knowing anything. How do you test the existence of this god? This is an important question, for, if you cannot test the information, then you don't have any knowledge. We must avoid elaborate means of testing that come down to rigging the results to reflect the desired conclusion. Remember, if you really want to find something you probably will. Obviously the safest way to test results is to demonstrate them to someone else or vice versa. If you cannot convincingly test your conclusion then you don't have knowledge.
Eric wrote:It is God who is our creator, thus the very foundation of knowledge.
I don't believe that you have any means to test that fact. There is no knowledge in it. It is a leap of faith and such a leap has nothing to do with knowledge. So, how do you test the proposition that god is the foundation of knowledge without first having a way to test the existence of god sufficiently to know that god exists?
Eric wrote:Prayer and meditation is a means to commune with God and to hear His/Her voice in guidance to our understanding. It is through faith in which we act upon this guidance.
None of these things suggest avenues to any sort of knowledge, do they? There is no way for you to verify the information. The voices that you think are guiding you may simply be paranoia and how would you know, if you cannot test the results? Prayer is something you do purely in your head. What has that to do with knowledge? If you talk to god and you don't get a response through the only means that you are sure of that connects you to the world outside, ie your eyes and ears, you cannot tell if that response has any connection with the real world, any validity or not.

Meditation is another thing that happens solely within your head. How can things that happen solely within your head bring you knowledge? Knowledge comes with testability. Not mental agility. All you know about the world comes through your senses.

There is a lot more that comes through your senses as well: stories, lies, opinions, propaganda, illusions, tricks of the light and so on. Your knowledge comes from outside you in such a way that, through objective testing, you can be convinced. Information that you hold to be true without testing it is called faith. We take a lot of things on faith. It makes living simpler. We can't go around testing everything for we wouldn't have time to enjoy living.

But isn't this god business important? Shouldn't we be able to test our information about god to see if it really is knowledge? The tools you've talked about, prayer and meditation, don't seem to provide any avenues to reach knowledge, because they don't deal objectively with real world information. But let's not forget the devious message that we should not test god: without being able to test the validity of the information about god all further information pertaining to this god is irrelevant.

If you can't test the existence of god then you cannot know god exists. Before talking about god as our creator, you have to talk about god and his existence. How do you do that when you don't seem to have the tools to test your information. And I don't see any significance in you being able to convince yourself through prayer and meditation. People are very good at conning themselves. Surely, you need to do better.

My initial question was "How do you get knowledge of the world and how do you test that knowledge?" The methods you have for getting knowledge of the world seem to be few and your proposals for alternatives don't seem to me to be able to deal with what you need to. If you disagree with this, how do you think prayer and meditation can help you reach knowledge? Hopefully, you can see that the getting of knowledge involves the conversion of real world information through testing. How would you test the proposition that god is real? ie how can you obtain the knowledge that god exists? That's step one.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

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Eric
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by Eric » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:04 am

spin wrote:
Eric wrote:Analysis as you state is something one does in one's head and I agree. When one seeks God with all their means, heart (aka inner feelings) soul and mind, God will not fail to provide them with knowledge.
Many people who seek god find something. They go to India and find divine awakening. They go to Mecca and find enlightenment. They fall on their knees and pray and find forgiveness. But what exactly do they find? If you start off with a conclusion, you will often find it. Unless you take precautions that will help you analyze the results, you won't really know what you have found. Things we find within ourselves have no necessary connection to the world outside us. It could easily be a load of hogwash, but because you have a conclusion that you are seeking--you are after all seeking god, so you know where you want to go--, you may have no ability to see anything but that conclusion.

All knowledge of the world comes to us through those ugly senses with which we experience the world and that includes possible knowledge of god. What we see with our eyes. What we hear. That is the only way we get information about the world outside. If we read books we are getting coded or elaborated information which we unpack the best we can through our learning, which shapes our understanding. The knowledge we get from books is purely theoretical. Its relation to the world needs to be established through experience, ie interaction with the world, interaction that you are able to repeat and verify through others repeating it.

What makes you think a priori that there is a god? The idea goes against all means we have of knowing anything. How do you test the existence of this god? This is an important question, for, if you cannot test the information, then you don't have any knowledge. We must avoid elaborate means of testing that come down to rigging the results to reflect the desired conclusion. Remember, if you really want to find something you probably will. Obviously the safest way to test results is to demonstrate them to someone else or vice versa. If you cannot convincingly test your conclusion then you don't have knowledge.
Eric wrote:It is God who is our creator, thus the very foundation of knowledge.
I don't believe that you have any means to test that fact. There is no knowledge in it. It is a leap of faith and such a leap has nothing to do with knowledge. So, how do you test the proposition that god is the foundation of knowledge without first having a way to test the existence of god sufficiently to know that god exists?
Eric wrote:Prayer and meditation is a means to commune with God and to hear His/Her voice in guidance to our understanding. It is through faith in which we act upon this guidance.
None of these things suggest avenues to any sort of knowledge, do they? There is no way for you to verify the information. The voices that you think are guiding you may simply be paranoia and how would you know, if you cannot test the results? Prayer is something you do purely in your head. What has that to do with knowledge? If you talk to god and you don't get a response through the only means that you are sure of that connects you to the world outside, ie your eyes and ears, you cannot tell if that response has any connection with the real world, any validity or not.

Meditation is another thing that happens solely within your head. How can things that happen solely within your head bring you knowledge? Knowledge comes with testability. Not mental agility. All you know about the world comes through your senses.

There is a lot more that comes through your senses as well: stories, lies, opinions, propaganda, illusions, tricks of the light and so on. Your knowledge comes from outside you in such a way that, through objective testing, you can be convinced. Information that you hold to be true without testing it is called faith. We take a lot of things on faith. It makes living simpler. We can't go around testing everything for we wouldn't have time to enjoy living.

But isn't this god business important? Shouldn't we be able to test our information about god to see if it really is knowledge? The tools you've talked about, prayer and meditation, don't seem to provide any avenues to reach knowledge, because they don't deal objectively with real world information. But let's not forget the devious message that we should not test god: without being able to test the validity of the information about god all further information pertaining to this god is irrelevant.

If you can't test the existence of god then you cannot know god exists. Before talking about god as our creator, you have to talk about god and his existence. How do you do that when you don't seem to have the tools to test your information. And I don't see any significance in you being able to convince yourself through prayer and meditation. People are very good at conning themselves. Surely, you need to do better.

My initial question was "How do you get knowledge of the world and how do you test that knowledge?" The methods you have for getting knowledge of the world seem to be few and your proposals for alternatives don't seem to me to be able to deal with what you need to. If you disagree with this, how do you think prayer and meditation can help you reach knowledge? Hopefully, you can see that the getting of knowledge involves the conversion of real world information through testing. How would you test the proposition that god is real? ie how can you obtain the knowledge that god exists? That's step one.
You state: There is no way for you to verify the information. My question: Is there any way you can verify your opinion without use of theories, opinions and beliefs? You state: If you start off with a conclusion, you will often find it. My question: Do not atheist and scientist start with a conclusion? You ask: If you can't test the existence of god then you cannot know god exists. My question: What test's would you recommend? You state: Hopefully, you can see that the getting of knowledge involves the conversion of real world information through testing. My question: What are Real World Information tests you considering real world and those not of real world. Do not both non-believers and believers both use the mind and elements and knowledge to explain their theories? (PS: have to leave for work will return in a few days. Look forward to responses.)
To become fully human is divine.

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spin
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by spin » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:17 am

Eric wrote:
spin wrote:
Eric wrote:Analysis as you state is something one does in one's head and I agree. When one seeks God with all their means, heart (aka inner feelings) soul and mind, God will not fail to provide them with knowledge.
Many people who seek god find something. They go to India and find divine awakening. They go to Mecca and find enlightenment. They fall on their knees and pray and find forgiveness. But what exactly do they find? If you start off with a conclusion, you will often find it. Unless you take precautions that will help you analyze the results, you won't really know what you have found. Things we find within ourselves have no necessary connection to the world outside us. It could easily be a load of hogwash, but because you have a conclusion that you are seeking--you are after all seeking god, so you know where you want to go--, you may have no ability to see anything but that conclusion.

All knowledge of the world comes to us through those ugly senses with which we experience the world and that includes possible knowledge of god. What we see with our eyes. What we hear. That is the only way we get information about the world outside. If we read books we are getting coded or elaborated information which we unpack the best we can through our learning, which shapes our understanding. The knowledge we get from books is purely theoretical. Its relation to the world needs to be established through experience, ie interaction with the world, interaction that you are able to repeat and verify through others repeating it.

What makes you think a priori that there is a god? The idea goes against all means we have of knowing anything. How do you test the existence of this god? This is an important question, for, if you cannot test the information, then you don't have any knowledge. We must avoid elaborate means of testing that come down to rigging the results to reflect the desired conclusion. Remember, if you really want to find something you probably will. Obviously the safest way to test results is to demonstrate them to someone else or vice versa. If you cannot convincingly test your conclusion then you don't have knowledge.
Eric wrote:It is God who is our creator, thus the very foundation of knowledge.
I don't believe that you have any means to test that fact. There is no knowledge in it. It is a leap of faith and such a leap has nothing to do with knowledge. So, how do you test the proposition that god is the foundation of knowledge without first having a way to test the existence of god sufficiently to know that god exists?
Eric wrote:Prayer and meditation is a means to commune with God and to hear His/Her voice in guidance to our understanding. It is through faith in which we act upon this guidance.
None of these things suggest avenues to any sort of knowledge, do they? There is no way for you to verify the information. The voices that you think are guiding you may simply be paranoia and how would you know, if you cannot test the results? Prayer is something you do purely in your head. What has that to do with knowledge? If you talk to god and you don't get a response through the only means that you are sure of that connects you to the world outside, ie your eyes and ears, you cannot tell if that response has any connection with the real world, any validity or not.

Meditation is another thing that happens solely within your head. How can things that happen solely within your head bring you knowledge? Knowledge comes with testability. Not mental agility. All you know about the world comes through your senses.

There is a lot more that comes through your senses as well: stories, lies, opinions, propaganda, illusions, tricks of the light and so on. Your knowledge comes from outside you in such a way that, through objective testing, you can be convinced. Information that you hold to be true without testing it is called faith. We take a lot of things on faith. It makes living simpler. We can't go around testing everything for we wouldn't have time to enjoy living.

But isn't this god business important? Shouldn't we be able to test our information about god to see if it really is knowledge? The tools you've talked about, prayer and meditation, don't seem to provide any avenues to reach knowledge, because they don't deal objectively with real world information. But let's not forget the devious message that we should not test god: without being able to test the validity of the information about god all further information pertaining to this god is irrelevant.

If you can't test the existence of god then you cannot know god exists. Before talking about god as our creator, you have to talk about god and his existence. How do you do that when you don't seem to have the tools to test your information. And I don't see any significance in you being able to convince yourself through prayer and meditation. People are very good at conning themselves. Surely, you need to do better.

My initial question was "How do you get knowledge of the world and how do you test that knowledge?" The methods you have for getting knowledge of the world seem to be few and your proposals for alternatives don't seem to me to be able to deal with what you need to. If you disagree with this, how do you think prayer and meditation can help you reach knowledge? Hopefully, you can see that the getting of knowledge involves the conversion of real world information through testing. How would you test the proposition that god is real? ie how can you obtain the knowledge that god exists? That's step one.
You state: There is no way for you to verify the information. My question: Is there any way you can verify your opinion without use of theories, opinions and beliefs? You state: If you start off with a conclusion, you will often find it. My question: Do not atheist and scientist start with a conclusion? You ask: If you can't test the existence of god then you cannot know god exists. My question: What test's would you recommend? You state: Hopefully, you can see that the getting of knowledge involves the conversion of real world information through testing. My question: What are Real World Information tests you considering real world and those not of real world. Do not both non-believers and believers both use the mind and elements and knowledge to explain their theories? (PS: have to leave for work will return in a few days. Look forward to responses.)
You didn't have time to read what I said with any serious analysis.

People who approach the world scientifically start with information and the prejudices they were taught. The scientist attempts to overcome the prejudices to get the most accurate analyses of the information.

A real world test is merely any test that you can carry out in the real world, ie that can be observed by others, to help you draw conclusions about information.

Testing comes from whatever knowledge you already have. For example, scientists started with the knowledge of some particles having mass and others having none, to conceive of the notion of the Higgs particle, which eventually led to tests that have recently been carried out. What knowledge do you already have for what you want to test? If you don't have any, then what have you got to test? The notion of god has been around for millennia, but we have got no closer to knowing anything about god.

Believers and non-believers have the same means to derive knowledge. The devising of tests to check real world information.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

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MrMacSon
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:52 pm

spin wrote:People who approach the world scientifically start with information and the prejudices they were taught. The scientist attempts to overcome the prejudices to get the most accurate analyses of the information.
Most scientists work in a particular field of science so are often well-read in that field. Most may work from a position of intrigue about an aspect of their field rather than prejudice.

Tommsky
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by Tommsky » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:46 pm

Eric wrote:
Tommsky wrote:
Eric wrote: I believe in the teachings of Christ not Christianity
What did Christ teach? In Mark's gospel he teaches precious little, only crumbs about fasting, the sabbath, divorce and how to be a first-century follower.

If the sermons in later gospels were authentic and important why aren't they mentioned in Mark, the source of events they were required to draw upon?

St Paul doesn't seem to know what Jesus taught other than on divorce.
There are many Gospels and writings outside of the Christian/Judea Bible on the Life of Christ and his teachings. Qu-Ran has teachings of Christ. There are many sources that share viewpoints and teachings of Christ in addition to other ancient philosophies and teachers. This website, is a great place to witness some of the writings. Simply put, to base an existence and teachings solely on 4 selected gospel writings and a handful of Paul's Epistles and coming to a conclusion from that alone, is not what I would call 'in-depth research and/or study' of an individual.
Ya, but if there were any value in non-canonical stuff you'd think the Catholics would have included it, look at the dross they do consider canonical. If these other teachings were important you'd have thought God would have tinkered to make sure they didn't become obscure. Hard to imagine Him at The Great White Judgment being like "you didn't heed the gospel of Barnabus that lay in the Egyptian desert for 1700 years? - get thee into the lake of fire prepared for the devila and his angels!".

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Cheerful Charlie
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by Cheerful Charlie » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:33 pm

Eric wrote:First off, acknowledgement and many thanks to Peter Kirby for his compassion to this tremendous site! Thank you Peter.

My faith as it grows:
I believe in the teachings of Christ not Christianity
I
That is where it stands now. :D
So, do you follow the commands of Jesus to sell all you have and give to the poor?

Luke 14
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 12
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Luke 18
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful Charlie - Strong atheist and jolly well proud of it.

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Eric
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by Eric » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:37 pm

Cheerful Charlie wrote:
Eric wrote:First off, acknowledgement and many thanks to Peter Kirby for his compassion to this tremendous site! Thank you Peter.

My faith as it grows:
I believe in the teachings of Christ not Christianity
I
That is where it stands now. :D
So, do you follow the commands of Jesus to sell all you have and give to the poor?

Luke 14
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 12
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Luke 18
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Cheerful Charlie
Hey Cheerful Charlie - PS Thumbs up on the user name by the way :-)

Now to respond to your question: I wholeheartedly believe in the teachings of Christ. When I study the teachings of Christ, there are several foundational questions I use in approaching this task. They are: When and if Jesus said this, how would he have said it in his native tongue? Are his teachings metaphorical or literal? (That is to say, what is the context of the teaching)? Where are similar teachings that contradict or support the teaching/s in other accounts? I use these questions due to my belief that the writings found in the Christian/Judea Bible and other writings are penned by humans.
To become fully human is divine.

beowulf
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by beowulf » Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:42 pm

Eric wrote:First off, acknowledgement and many thanks to Peter Kirby for his compassion to this tremendous site! Thank you Peter.

My faith as it grows:
I believe in the teachings of Christ not Christianity
I believe that Christ is part of the Divine Mystery of our Infinite Creator
I believe in the One Divine Infinite Creator
I believe that each of us have a unique Divine Spark, that as we grow to recognize our uniqueness, can then come together in unity as one and continue our unending/everlasting life of 'true free will' which is necessary for life to exist.

That is where it stands now. :D
So, what have you learned here so far? :)

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Eric
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Re: My Faith as I am Coming to Learn It

Post by Eric » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:52 pm

beowulf wrote:
Eric wrote:First off, acknowledgement and many thanks to Peter Kirby for his compassion to this tremendous site! Thank you Peter.

My faith as it grows:
I believe in the teachings of Christ not Christianity
I believe that Christ is part of the Divine Mystery of our Infinite Creator
I believe in the One Divine Infinite Creator
I believe that each of us have a unique Divine Spark, that as we grow to recognize our uniqueness, can then come together in unity as one and continue our unending/everlasting life of 'true free will' which is necessary for life to exist.

That is where it stands now. :D
So, what have you learned here so far? :)
I have learned to laugh and shake my head a lot :thumbup:
To become fully human is divine.

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