Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:51 am

Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.

Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.

Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.

Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?

There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?

Thanks.

Regards
DL

theeternaliam
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by theeternaliam » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:12 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:51 am
Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.

Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.

Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.

Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?

There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?

Thanks.

Regards
DL

Well, yer makin the mistake of the self righteous Pharisees by saying if you dont actually kill someone u arent guilty of murder. Fact is, you have probably been angry before and therefore the sin of murder potentially exists within you. As kahlil gibran would say, i am no worse than the greatest saint and no better than the worse criminal.

As well, it should be realized that: In His mercy, God makes the fixed pains of hell.
Where do you get this idea of justice you speak of? How are you able to even know what is just? Is it something that is taught by society? If so, do you think so highly of society as to full heartedly agree with its determination of justice? If you havent simply been conditioned by societys version of "justice" then where do you get your ideas and would your ideas of justice be universally valid?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am

theeternaliam wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:12 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:51 am
Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.

Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.

Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.

Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?

There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?

Thanks.

Regards
DL

Well, yer makin the mistake of the self righteous Pharisees by saying if you dont actually kill someone u arent guilty of murder. Fact is, you have probably been angry before and therefore the sin of murder potentially exists within you. As kahlil gibran would say, i am no worse than the greatest saint and no better than the worse criminal.

As well, it should be realized that: In His mercy, God makes the fixed pains of hell.
Where do you get this idea of justice you speak of? How are you able to even know what is just? Is it something that is taught by society? If so, do you think so highly of society as to full heartedly agree with its determination of justice? If you havent simply been conditioned by societys version of "justice" then where do you get your ideas and would your ideas of justice be universally valid?
Statistics.

The justice I speak of is what the bible teaches as well as secular law.

That being that it is close to an eye for an eye. Not real eyes of course.

You seem to doubt that we have a moral sense. Do you have one?

I do and what is that self-righteousness you are talking about?

It almost seems that you have a moral; sense.

Regards
DL

theeternaliam
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:33 am

Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by theeternaliam » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am
theeternaliam wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:12 am
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:51 am
Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.

Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.

Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.

Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?

There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?

Thanks.

Regards
DL

Well, yer makin the mistake of the self righteous Pharisees by saying if you dont actually kill someone u arent guilty of murder. Fact is, you have probably been angry before and therefore the sin of murder potentially exists within you. As kahlil gibran would say, i am no worse than the greatest saint and no better than the worse criminal.

As well, it should be realized that: In His mercy, God makes the fixed pains of hell.
Where do you get this idea of justice you speak of? How are you able to even know what is just? Is it something that is taught by society? If so, do you think so highly of society as to full heartedly agree with its determination of justice? If you havent simply been conditioned by societys version of "justice" then where do you get your ideas and would your ideas of justice be universally valid?
Statistics.

The justice I speak of is what the bible teaches as well as secular law.

That being that it is close to an eye for an eye. Not real eyes of course.

You seem to doubt that we have a moral sense. Do you have one?

I do and what is that self-righteousness you are talking about?

It almost seems that you have a moral; sense.

Regards
DL
Im saying that god gives us our moral sense and our sense of justice. So how can you judge god, when god is the one who gives you your sense of judgment?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:36 am

theeternaliam wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am

Im saying that god gives us our moral sense and our sense of justice. So how can you judge god, when god is the one who gives you your sense of judgment?
What you are saying is speculative nonsense because you cannot even show that there is a god let alone give whatever that word means to you attributes.

How can you read of all your god's crimes against humanity and end in judging him as good?

How is it you can judge god as the giver of our morals and know that others are wrong when they do not agree?

How can you judge god while denying us the same privilege?

Regards
DL

davidmartin
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by davidmartin » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:00 pm

GnosticBishop this whole question is based on the premise that God has condemned mankind as found in scriptures
When I say 'found in scriptures' I mean it is unclear precisely what is going on and depends on which parts you emphasise along the way
For example you could easily emphasise the parts where God forgives, or threatens then relents, and especially with Jesus find many places where harsh judgement can be utterly refused as a reality based on all manner of interpretations. If scripture is not flexible, mans interpretation certainly is

Be that as it may, it seems probable it was man in writing scripture was the one that introduced the harshness. Not that scripture is false, just that spiritual folk are wont to introduce their own ideas into what they say through their inspiration. Hence the need for interpretation

So far be it from feeling hard done by God, it may be God that is hard done by man
The spiritually free person believes something along these lines and doesn't feel forced to contort themselves over scripture, either in it's defence or to mock it but just accept it as it is, holding onto the higher principle at work that makes sense of all things

So I reject this idea God is condemning mankind especially not to a hell which makes no logical sense. This idea is just a stumbling block to be walked past, and it was put there by man. You can still believe in divine justice naturally enough. The powerful hold such ideas have, is the cause of human suffering and has a negative effect on morality because it takes away all hope, so why not kill, why not rob? Now what Jesus says makes more sense, go by the heart. I think he was basically saying what i'm saying, I took it from there
In a word, I don't blame God's nature I blame man for teaching ideas contrary to God's nature. This makes a whole lot more sense!

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:33 am

davidmartin wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:00 pm
GnosticBishop this whole question is based on the premise that God has condemned mankind as found in scriptures
When I say 'found in scriptures' I mean it is unclear precisely what is going on and depends on which parts you emphasise along the way
For example you could easily emphasise the parts where God forgives, or threatens then relents, and especially with Jesus find many places where harsh judgement can be utterly refused as a reality based on all manner of interpretations. If scripture is not flexible, mans interpretation certainly is

Be that as it may, it seems probable it was man in writing scripture was the one that introduced the harshness. Not that scripture is false, just that spiritual folk are wont to introduce their own ideas into what they say through their inspiration. Hence the need for interpretation

So far be it from feeling hard done by God, it may be God that is hard done by man
The spiritually free person believes something along these lines and doesn't feel forced to contort themselves over scripture, either in it's defence or to mock it but just accept it as it is, holding onto the higher principle at work that makes sense of all things

So I reject this idea God is condemning mankind especially not to a hell which makes no logical sense. This idea is just a stumbling block to be walked past, and it was put there by man. You can still believe in divine justice naturally enough. The powerful hold such ideas have, is the cause of human suffering and has a negative effect on morality because it takes away all hope, so why not kill, why not rob? Now what Jesus says makes more sense, go by the heart. I think he was basically saying what i'm saying, I took it from there
In a word, I don't blame God's nature I blame man for teaching ideas contrary to God's nature. This makes a whole lot more sense!
"Not that scripture is false,"

?? You believe in real talking serpents and donkeys? You believe that to be true?

This aside.

You are blaming man instead of god, yet man can only be and do what god put into our natures.

You want your cake and to eat it too.

Regards
DL

davidmartin
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by davidmartin » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:49 pm

"You want your cake and to eat it too."
Yep down to the last crumb!

I can see your point about scripture, but if it's not 100% false then it's a matter of how to read it to find the true interpretation. I'm not sure whether claiming scripture is 100% literally false isn't as problematic as saying its 100% literally true. No I don't believe in talking serpents!

As to blaming man, your point is a good one. You are taking it to a higher level that God ultimately made man have a nature able to misrepresent God's nature, so how can man be blamed? Or for that matter be justly condemned... if our nature is flawed, how is that our fault?

But, I'm saying that God does not condemn in the way man has portrayed him as doing. This creates a false idea of what God is like
I don't think there is anything wrong with our natures because our natures are like God's nature at the deepest part of them, although we have individuality and can do whatever we want, good or bad with our own identity and history. So I'm not blaming man, only some men who chose to portray God in a false way, which leaves both God and the rest of us blame free, more or less but suffering, none the wiser and in a bad situation
Basically every individual human who does stuff spiritually is portraying God in some way or another, and some get it more right than others. that's all I meant. a lot of good people don't end up in positions of authority unfortunately, which some may feel is an understatement with wider implications!

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:16 am

davidmartin wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:49 pm


But, I'm saying that God does not condemn in the way man has portrayed him as doing. This creates a false idea of what God is like
I don't think there is anything wrong with our natures because our natures are like God's nature at the deepest part of them, although we have individuality and can do whatever we want, good or bad with our own identity and history.
God is and always was seen by the intelligentsia as a mystery that is unknowable and unfathomable.

How do you know how god condemns?

You see a false idea of what god is like. What is the right idea and how can you know anything about the supernatural?

Here is something for you to ponder.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

davidmartin
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by davidmartin » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:10 pm

How do you know how god condemns?
You see a false idea of what god is like. What is the right idea and how can you know anything about the supernatural?
I go a lot by the gospel of Thomas to help get into right mood for pondering this stuff, it's influenced me a lot. I also find the Odes of Solomon to be very illuminating which is woefully overlooked
I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.
haha 'mental trash' I like that.
Yep literalism is pretty much the enemy I guess, your quotes of Rabbi/Origen are on the right lines to me. The Sufi's in Islam are another

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