Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

[stephan happy huller]

Willie

I didn't know about you until five minutes ago so my wish that your chemotherapy goes well was hardly 'belated.' Other than that I don't know what to say to your post. Are they give you high THC marijuana cigarettes as part of your treatment? In any event, live as long a life as possible.

[willieH]

Willie

I didn't know about you until five minutes ago so my wish that your chemotherapy goes well was hardly 'belated.' Other than that I don't know what to say to your post. Are they give you high THC marijuana cigarettes as part of your treatment? In any event, live as long a life as possible.

ABOUT YOUR POST:

Steve... Sorry if I came off unthankful or strong... I appreciate your wish.

As far as "living as long as possible"... I truly believe that we are all upon that agenda... as LIFE itself is a WONDEROUS mystery which cannot be explained in or by, finite terms. Even though there are a few FOOLISH explanations (Evolution, Ancient Aliens, etc), ...as to how LIFE and the Universe appear before OBSERVATIONISTS of it... there is only ONE explanation that makes any sense, and that explanation is that ---- something FAR BEYOND our understanding preceeded the entire thing.

Once we all enter into death, we shall either find that GOD exists or He does not, and there is no way to prove that He DOES (except reason), or that He DOESN'T! To think that LIFE in all its complexities as well as its SURROUNDING complexity, just "happened of itself" without any generating source is as dumb as arguing that Nuclear power plants erect themselves.

Whatever HAS a DESIGN, is a product OF IT. Cars dont make themselves, buildings do not build themselves, etc... NOTHING that displays DESIGN, makes ITSELF... including the INFORMATION required in order to produce it. Mathematics did not make themselves, language does not make itself, etc. They REQUIRE basic LAWS and SURROUNDING data which in the end, are INFORMATION...

We must begin with the basis of what we observe (which includes both INFORMATION to build or erect, as well as INFORMATION to interpret what has been built or erected, ...eh?



ABOUT THE WORD of YHVH God:

In my life, I began as essentially, an ATHEIST. Even in my early 20's, I considered myself REASONABLE. ...However, ..."Atheism" is a blindness that consciously turns its back on REASON. There is not even the suggestion of REASON, within the perception that the entire Universe and all within it, began itself, of itself and then developed itself to the observational heights we might find of and within it, amidst our view of it today.

The Hubble telescope (with which we utilize to observe the Universe) did not design itself did it? Of course, it did not. Any admission of this or any other type, essentially negates true ATHEISM... demoting it unto its deserved denialings.

I am a (very) dedicated student of the Bible. And after 37 years of study, I am become fairly well versed in what I am speaking of when it comes to that set of writings...

About my posting to you... when I post on the internet, I consider that I am preaching to the WORLD. JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN... without regard to their doings, sayings or awareness -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- 1 Tim 4:9-11 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- Rom 5:18-20

It does not matter to me whether people befriend me, berate me, or persecute me while I traverse the pathway upon which I am called. Too many "christians" get "offended" if anyone says ANYTHING against the Creator. I do not. The Creator cannot be offended in ways we as FINITE beings, are able to percieve. He is INFINITELY ABOVE all we can aspire to understand, so... when it comes down to it, ...the "UNBELIEVING ATHEIST" is actually very much like a little baby pooping in its finite pants... the kid truly has no clues as to what he did, nor was there an semblance of intent on his behalf, that possibly could offend even an even SLIGHTLY intelligent being, let alone the Creator of such beings which possess intelligence!

Thanks for the thoughts toward my treatment Steve, I do not wish to appear to be unthankful toward anyone... and I DO appreaciate any well-wishes and especially PRAYER, on behalf of my condition...

Just curious, what does THC marijuana cigarettes have to do with it? Are you a patient? I DO know for a fact, that the SDA (7th Day Adventist) Church believes (after EXTENSIVE research), that THC treatment cures cancer.

As far as my chemo treatment... I am almost done with it... I have one treatment left (of ten total treatments).

I DO use appetite enhancement (as chemo treatmeant takes away the sense of taste to a degree). So yes... the plant which produces THC (marijuana) is included IN my treatment VIA prescription... and I live in Washington state, where possession of this plant is LEGAL.


PEACE... ...willieH

[arnoldo]

[willieH]

Free will exists for all humans irrespective of religion or lack of it.

This is laughable... as man (as a whole) with his "WILL" continues to DEGRADE the future of the human race. The biggest question of the Human Race, is NOT where it is headed or its potential... the biggest question is when will MAN degrade to the point where he secures his own EXTINCTION from this world.

All this amounts to is saying "I'm a nice guy... just ask ME"...

In any religion God is the master and he cannot be forced to behave like a programmed robot by the behaviour of any human; such as: Give me Paradise for I have been a good Muslim. (Or any other religion)

Where are you getting THAT? ALL that man does has already been noted and DECLARED -- Isaiah 46:10 -- GOD is not on MAN's agenda... the opposite is true. GOD LOVES His creation, and WILL save it in its entirety, WITHOUT REGARD to men and RELIGION.

Can any human from any religion ever order God-any God- to do anything whatsoever?

Don't see that this is even a point worthy of discussion. If any "God" does exist, he/she/it, is not affected by, nor finds that finite beings, defer its agenda... otherwise, this "God", is certainly not entitled to such a title.

There IS a "GOD" (and only ONE)... but the truth is that arrogant finites are upon His AGENDA, and do not affect Him in the slightest. He is working ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- and when His work is finished, all FINITES shall find themselves before Him... restored, and IN WORSHIP of Him, whether or not they (in the arrogance of themselves) presently acknowledge Him to be "God" or not, is essentially irrlevant to GOD.

He is moving the "pieces" on the board (we call "life"), even though the "pieces" (amidst their arrogance) do not consider themselves "pieces" which are under His control, and do not consider themselves as subject unto His agenda.

UNBELIEVERS are as a deaf and blind man sitting in silence, falsely percieving himself to be ALONE, while innumerable others IN SILENCE surround him, just BEYOND his inability to VIEW their presence.

PEACE... ...willieH

[willieH]

willieH: Hi - "Cheerful Charlie, atheist and jolly well proud of it"

I am always interested in the "atheistic" point of view as it differs from one person to another... a RELIGION of sorts... as it is BELIEVED by the UNBELIEVER ("atheist") that there is NO "GOD"... so I have some questions for you... concerning "atheism"...

(1) -- As a jolly well proud "atheist" I am sure you are "jolly well proud" for a REASON (about something which contains little or no REASON at all), but hey, ...doesn't it take FAITH to "BELIEVE" that there is no GOD? Are you not exercising FAITH, in order to maintain DISBELIEF in the existence of God? Is not "DISBELIEVING"... just a form of "BELIEVING" albeit in the negative?

(2) -- I certainly do not mean any offense to you Charlie... but in order for LOGICALLY thinking persons to accept your position, you must be able to present your position LOGICALLY. That humans think that the unspeakable complexity we are amidst, just arose from NOTHINGNESS... is as ILLOGICAL as saying the "'65 Corvette", of NOTHING, ...produced itself... without a design, without planning, no prior thing in influence, etc... contributing to its "existence".

(3) -- Are you an "atheist" due to the conclusions upon which you have arrived due to your own study of the subject, ...as to the existence/non-existence of "God"? Or is your UNBELIEF, just your position, because you are simply not resigned to any AUTHORITY which might exceed or preceed your own?

(4) -- I was once an "atheist" (at least I thought I was)... but as time went on, I found REASON begging an explanation of not only PRESENTLY innumerable physical things (including complex laws, and properties) which can be observed (the "creation" with which we externally perceive using our "senses")... but also, INFORMATION itself called for REASON to be applied to it as well...

Something/anything that might "INFORM", preceeds the ones which are "INFORMED" by it, ...so - Charlie the darn proud atheist, ...where did "INFORMATION" come from? Is it your position that INFORMATION itself also "evolved" from NOTHING? And if so, could you outline for us that process? (the folly of evolution is easily disproven, but it will be interesting to hear your thesis on the existence of INFORMATION, and how exactly IT ..."came to BE"... )

PEACE... ...willieH

[beowulf]

WillieH
What is your answer to the OP?

I would appreciate references to scholarly commentary and/or your thoughts, opinions as to why God would gift man with Free Will, but create man without the knowledge of good & evil. Free Will seems to have little meaning without this knowledge.

(For the sake of argument, let's assume Free Will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. As it regards moral acts, an act of Free Will carries with it responsibility for the consequences on the agent's part).

[willieH]

WillieH
What is your answer to the OP?

I already answered it Beowulf -----> Page 3 (of this discussion) - Wednesday, Dec 4, 2013 - 3:19pm


PEACE... ...willieH

[A_Nony_Mouse]

I would appreciate references to scholarly commentary and/or your thoughts, opinions as to why God would gift man with Free Will, but create man without the knowledge of good & evil. Free Will seems to have little meaning without this knowledge.

If you buy into the illiterate interpretation the Eden story by St. Augustine it is obviously a curse at best a malevolent gift, like a bomb sent through the mail being declared a gift of the terrorist.

From the plain reading of the Eden story there is no good or evil in it. There is no declaration that disobedience is evil. It was sort of like opening that package in the mail and hearing the click and thinking awshit just before the bang. There was no way to know.

In other words Augustine was an idiot.

A&E were thrown out because they would eat of the tree of life and live forever and become gods like us. That is the only reason give. That is the way of the Greek gods, very human except they live forever.

(For the sake of argument, let's assume Free Will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. As it regards moral acts, an act of Free Will carries with it responsibility for the consequences on the agent's part).

All consequences makes that butterfly in Brazil responsible for that hurricane so we have to hunt down and kill that SOB butterfly. We are all butterflies. All of our decisions spread out to have some affect upon everything.

Therefore the consequences of the assumption show that it does not exist.

So people will add terms like reasonable, foreseeable and intended while making exception for liability for accidents and other things none of which makes a lick of sense in terms of the classical description of free will. That means it is a fun source of mental masturbation but people do not view the world as though it a practical concept.

[Mental flatliner]

2010 FIFA World Cup style and fashion

Must Love Color! The Brazilian team fashionista fan is at love with green, yellow and blue.

One dosen't have got to wear all three of them colors at the same time, but mixing and matching various shades from the colors can make for a daring, bold, beautiful, fresh summer look.

This holiday season, there's no need to see a game in sweats (excluding those watching while running in the treadmill). Via a you, then amp in the stylish factor and support your team using your favorite shades of green, yellow and blue while you shop inside the food store, attending a weekend barbecue or hanging out with friends.

Here are a couple suggestions to get rocking. Simple, stylish and bold perform best. Not supporting team Brazil? Fret not, you'll find your back. View other team fashion choices. Since tee may be a men shirt, it could be slightly loose and drapey excellent for wearing during a cute kind of denim cutoffs. Next, I added motorcycle boots to channel the summer boots trend while keeping the toes dry in the event of rain. Finally, I tossed in some special accessories: an lunch bag (okay, fine: it no functional purse, but it SO cute), a wonderful World Cup necklace including football and whistle, but some red flower studs. Just throw this check out so you be prepared hit the pub, or simply friends house, to watch out several games!.
http://www.grigota.com

Since I've seen this post in several other threads, I'll dare to venture some advice from you:

Would you recommend drapey denim cut-offs for a crucifixion or form-fitting?
Should the one being executed rely on styles that support the lower back while hanging from nails or go for something fashionable and make a statement?

[Gnostic Bishop]

I would appreciate references to scholarly commentary and/or your thoughts, opinions as to why God would gift man with Free Will, but create man without the knowledge of good & evil. Free Will seems to have little meaning without this knowledge.

(For the sake of argument, let's assume Free Will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. As it regards moral acts, an act of Free Will carries with it responsibility for the consequences on the agent's part).

I would think that an order or command by God, though shalt not do whatever, would annul any free will given.

A decision made with a gun at ones head is not a free decision at all. It is a pressure to comply. That is hardly what one would call free will.

The Jews originally saw man's elevation in Eden and not the fall that Christianity invented.

http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php

Further, from the Jewish view, A & E had to eat of the tree of Knowledge before they could desire to choose anything.

That is why the could not reproduce until after eating of the Tree of Knowledge and learning what the choices were for themselves.

Here is a Rabbi speaking to that notion.

http://www.onbeing.org/program/genesis- ... ornberg/11

Regards
DL