Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

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mkang
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Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by mkang »

I would appreciate references to scholarly commentary and/or your thoughts, opinions as to why God would gift man with Free Will, but create man without the knowledge of good & evil. Free Will seems to have little meaning without this knowledge.

(For the sake of argument, let's assume Free Will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. As it regards moral acts, an act of Free Will carries with it responsibility for the consequences on the agent's part).
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Cheerful Charlie
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by Cheerful Charlie »

mkang wrote:I would appreciate references to scholarly commentary and/or your thoughts, opinions as to why God would gift man with Free Will, but create man without the knowledge of good & evil. Free Will seems to have little meaning without this knowledge.

(For the sake of argument, let's assume Free Will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. As it regards moral acts, an act of Free Will carries with it responsibility for the consequences on the agent's part).

Romans 11, why didn't the Jews accept Jesus as Messiah and Son of God Paul's answer, because God hardened their hearts not to.
See also Romans, 8 and 9. Election and Reprobation. Not to mention hardening the heart of Pharoah and the Canaanites,
God "putting his spirit into Rezin" king of Syria to attack Israel and so on.

There isn't really free will in the Bible, so don't assume that.

Genesis is a myth and later doctrine invented by Paul, original sin et al does damage to any concept of free will.

"Free will is impossible"
--- Martin Luther
Download and read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will" where he walks you through all the relevant Bible verses on the subject.

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful Charlie - Strong atheist and jolly well proud of it.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by GakuseiDon »

mkang wrote:I would appreciate references to scholarly commentary and/or your thoughts, opinions as to why God would gift man with Free Will, but create man without the knowledge of good & evil. Free Will seems to have little meaning without this knowledge.

(For the sake of argument, let's assume Free Will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. As it regards moral acts, an act of Free Will carries with it responsibility for the consequences on the agent's part).
I think we should be careful when trying to read our modern ideas of Free Will and Good & Evil into ancient stories. "Good & evil" in Gen 3 is somehow related to wearing clothes and shame.

Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
5 “For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

So before they knew G&E, they were naked and not ashamed. When God seems them ashamed for being naked, He assumes that they now know G&E:

Gen 3:10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

So in the story, obeying God's commands (like not eating of the Tree), without knowing G&E, is the ideal state. I know the modern criticism that if Adam and Eve didn't know G&E, then how could they have known not to eat of the Tree? But I doubt that the modern concept of moral agency was what was in view when the story was originally written down. Knowing G&E somehow takes the person outside of an ideal innocent state, and was not a good thing.

Interestingly, Christian gnostic sects like the Ophites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites considered the snake the hero of the story, for bringing the knowledge of G&E to mankind.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
beowulf
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by beowulf »

Free will exists, and is defined as the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives, our laws build on this assumption to regulate society and it has developed an elaborate set of rules to evaluate guilt, such as diminished responsibility and so forth.


Free will in religion is the power of man/woman to merit salvation by choosing to obey the divine law and hence the correct decision is what determines salvation.


Both in Catholic and in Protestant religions man has no such power; there is nothing man could do to force God to grant salvation and that is the explanation for the suffering and death of god in his human persona.

Salvation is always a gift of god in both the Catholic and Protestant religions. Catholics say that the gift and good works both are needed for salvation. Protestants say the sovereignty of god means that he can never be obliged to grant salvation as in paying a debt when a demand for payment is presented and hence free will plays no part.
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Eric
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by Eric »

To base the term Free Will, based on a Christian/Judeo belief or in any of the many creation stories found in many religious views throughout the spherical world in ancient times, is futile. We live in Free-Will. And through this free will, we have created division, slavery, right and wrong, poverty, charity, cities, technology, and so on. Therefore the question of good and evil does not point the Mother or Father of our creation, it points to us and why we have created the chaos in our free choice.
To become fully human is divine.
beowulf
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by beowulf »

Eric wrote:To base the term Free Will, based on a Christian/Judeo belief or in any of the many creation stories found in many religious views throughout the spherical world in ancient times, is futile. We live in Free-Will. And through this free will, we have created division, slavery, right and wrong, poverty, charity, cities, technology, and so on. Therefore the question of good and evil does not point the Mother or Father of our creation, it points to us and why we have created the chaos in our free choice.
Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation.

Any discussion about free will must address this question: Can humans ever do anything to deserve salvation in the judgment of God?
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Eric
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by Eric »

beowulf wrote:
Eric wrote:To base the term Free Will, based on a Christian/Judeo belief or in any of the many creation stories found in many religious views throughout the spherical world in ancient times, is futile. We live in Free-Will. And through this free will, we have created division, slavery, right and wrong, poverty, charity, cities, technology, and so on. Therefore the question of good and evil does not point the Mother or Father of our creation, it points to us and why we have created the chaos in our free choice.
Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation.

Any discussion about free will must address this question: Can humans ever do anything to deserve salvation in the judgment of God?
I believe in God and have free will - it's that simple. You state: "Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation" is simply your interpretation. I always find it humorous when people of faith or no faith, in trying to qualify that if you believe, you have to believe this way or that way. Free will needs no interpretation or set of rules in order for it to exist. Free will is free will and exists - whether you choose to believe it, not believe it, or set your own definition or interpretation on what makes free will - free will.
To become fully human is divine.
beowulf
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by beowulf »

Eric wrote:
beowulf wrote:
Eric wrote:To base the term Free Will, based on a Christian/Judeo belief or in any of the many creation stories found in many religious views throughout the spherical world in ancient times, is futile. We live in Free-Will. And through this free will, we have created division, slavery, right and wrong, poverty, charity, cities, technology, and so on. Therefore the question of good and evil does not point the Mother or Father of our creation, it points to us and why we have created the chaos in our free choice.
Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation.

Any discussion about free will must address this question: Can humans ever do anything to deserve salvation in the judgment of God?
I believe in God and have free will - it's that simple. You state: "Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation" is simply your interpretation. I always find it humorous when people of faith or no faith, in trying to qualify that if you believe, you have to believe this way or that way. Free will needs no interpretation or set of rules in order for it to exist. Free will is free will and exists - whether you choose to believe it, not believe it, or set your own definition or interpretation on what makes free will - free will.
Free will exists. Believing in God and having free will is compatible.

For religious people the only really important question is ‘salvation’ and by salvation they mean the kind of afterlife they will enjoy or suffer after death. Every religion I know claims to be the way to a better life after death; salvation is the commodity they all sell

The question is whether the faithful are empowered to conquer salvation or whether salvation is only possible as a gift. In Christianity, God became human to die for our sins.

Why did God die for our sins?
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Eric
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by Eric »

Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation.

Any discussion about free will must address this question: Can humans ever do anything to deserve salvation in the judgment of God?[/quote]

I believe in God and have free will - it's that simple. You state: "Free will in religion means the power to earn salvation" is simply your interpretation. I always find it humorous when people of faith or no faith, in trying to qualify that if you believe, you have to believe this way or that way. Free will needs no interpretation or set of rules in order for it to exist. Free will is free will and exists - whether you choose to believe it, not believe it, or set your own definition or interpretation on what makes free will - free will.[/quote]

Free will exists. Believing in God and having free will is compatible.

For religious people the only really important question is ‘salvation’ and by salvation they mean the kind of afterlife they will enjoy or suffer after death. Every religion I know claims to be the way to a better life after death; salvation is the commodity they all sell

The question is whether the faithful are empowered to conquer salvation or whether salvation is only possible as a gift. In Christianity, God became human to die for our sins.

Why did God die for our sins?[/quote]

Your quote: "Why did God die for our sins?" That question though a good question is more based on the Christian religion. In the Quran Jesus is a prophet like that of Moses or others. In the Jewish religion Christ was not God in the flesh so to say. Then you have other religions and beliefs in the world that believe in a God that does not contain Jesus at all in their belief. So in using that question for establishing did God give us Free Will is limited to the Christian belief. With that said, a christian can still have free will to choose to accept that Christ is the Son of God or deny it. Therefore, Free Will of choice even for the Christian religion still exists.
To become fully human is divine.
beowulf
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Re: Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil; Free Will

Post by beowulf »

Free will exists for all humans irrespective of religion or lack of it.

In any religion God is the master and he cannot be forced to behave like a programmed robot by the behaviour of any human; such as: Give me Paradise for I have been a good Muslim. (Or any other religion)


Can any human from any religion ever order God-any God- to do anything whatsoever?
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