Pontius Pilate

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arnoldo
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Pontius Pilate

Post by arnoldo » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:23 pm

AN UNPUBLISHED COIN OF PONTIUS PILATEAND SOME SPECULATIONS ABOUT HIS CAREER DB Saddington, URD Vogel - Akroterion, 2014 - akroterion.journals.ac.za

Interesting article on Pontius Pilate which I came across to determine if he had any reason to journey to Jerusalem at any time. Other than Josephus, Philo seems to be the only other significant source of information apart from any possible archaelogical artificats. From the article, the attachment below provides an onomastic analysis of Pilate's name.
pontiuspilate.PNG
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http://akroterion.journals.ac.za/pub/ar ... le/193/264

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arnoldo
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by arnoldo » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:30 am

rsz_pilate_recon.jpg
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Roger Pearse makes note that that the title for Pilate on the Pilate Stone is "Prefect of Judaea" whereas Josephus gave Pilate the title " Procurator."
If we accept this, we would get us something like “To the Caesareans, the Tiberium Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judaea, ?? has given ??”, I.e. Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judaea, has given this Temple of Tiberius to the people of Caesarea.

Sherwin-White remarked that this confirmed his own hypothesis as to the title that Pilate held. The title of Procurator was introduced by Claudius, and its use for Pilate by Tacitus and Josephus is perhaps simply a case of those authors using the contemporary title for a provincial governor, rather than one that had dropped out of use.
http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/tag/pilate-stone/


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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by neilgodfrey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm

Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.

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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm

neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm
Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:13 am

Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm
Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
I don't have what you are asking for. My "issue" with C's brief explanation was that it appeared to indicate no evidence-based argument to support the assertion it made (that the author referenced the "business" title to further belittle the victim crucified) and hence comes across to me as ad hoc.

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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by iskander » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:10 am

arnoldo, Pilate was probably a military prefect and later in his career a governor (procurator).
Augustus turned therefore to the equestrian Order and by employing its members in the public service , from which they had largely been excluded during the Republic ...After the qualifying military service ( perhaps as praefectus of an auxiliary cohort).. Augustus used them as financial agents ( procurators) in his provinces , and also as governors (procurators) of the less important imperial provinces.
From the Gracchi to Nero
H, H, Scullard
University Paperbacks, 1959, pg. 234
Methuen & Co Ltd
London WC2

For many members of the equestrian Order the rank of praefectus would have been a stepping stone to the post of procurator . ( e, g, Coronel before General) .
Last edited by iskander on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:24 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:13 am
I don't have what you are asking for. My "issue" with C's brief explanation was that it appeared to indicate no evidence-based argument to support the assertion it made (that the author referenced the "business" title to further belittle the victim crucified) and hence comes across to me as ad hoc.
I believe Carrier's brief explanation was referring back to his 2011 paper, Herod the Procurator, which is available online: http://www.richardcarrier.info/HerodSyrianGovernor.pdf.
Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
I have experienced this same phenomenon with regard to his paper. I have read it once and skimmed it at least once more, but I cannot seem to retain the argument in my memory for some reason.
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pneuma
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by pneuma » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:27 am

Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm
Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
Peter I can't speak for Carrier as I have never read him, but from my own research on the historical Jesus I did find evidence that Pilate held both offices. I will check my notes and see if I can find it.

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pneuma
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by pneuma » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:03 am

The Pilate Stone states Pilate was a Prefect of Judaea.

The only physical, archaeological evidence that confirms the existence of Pilate is the Latin inscription found on a limestone block relating Pilate's tribute to Tiberius.[11] The artifact, sometimes known as the Pilate Stone, was discovered in 1961 by an archaeological team led by Antonio Frova.[12] It was found as a reused block within a staircase located in a semicircular structure behind the stage house of the Roman theatre at Caesarea, the city that served as Rome's administrative centre in the province of Judaea. Roman governors were based in Caesarea and only visited Jerusalem on special occasions, or in times of unrest. The artifact is a fragment of the dedicatory inscriptions of a building, probably a temple, which was constructed, possibly in honour of the emperor Tiberius,[13][14] dating to 26–36 AD.[11] The dedication states that Pilate was prefect of Judaea, read praefectus Iudaeae. The early governors of Judaea were of prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with Cuspius Fadus in 44 AD. The artifact is currently housed in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem,[15][16] while a replica stands at Caesarea.[17]

Pasted from <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate>



This is an incorrect assumption

Here is a list of 7 Prefects of Judea before 44 AD and 6 of the 7 Josephus calls procurators.


Coponious 6-9
M.Ambibulus 9-12
Annius Rufua 12-15
Valerius Gratus 15-26
Pontius Pilate 26-36
Marcellus 36-37
Marullus 37-41



Josephus's Antiquities, book 18
2. As Coponius, who we told you was sent along with Cyrenius, was exercising his office of procurator, and governing Judea, the following accidents happened. As the Jews were celebrating the feast of unleavened bread, which we call the Passover, it was customary for the priests to open the temple-gates just after midnight. When, therefore, those gates were first opened, some of the Samaritans came privately into Jerusalem, and threw about dead men's bodies, in the cloisters; on which account the Jews afterward excluded them out of the temple, which they had not used to do at such festivals; and on other accounts also they watched the temple more carefully than they had formerly done. A little after which accident Coponius returned to Rome, and Marcus Ambivius came to be his successor in that government; under whom Salome, the sister of king Herod, died, and left to Julia, [Caesar's wife,] Jamnia, all its toparchy, and Phasaelis in the plain, and Arehelais, where is a great plantation of palm trees, and their fruit is excellent in its kind. After him came Annius Rufus, under whom died Caesar, the second emperor of the Romans, the duration of whose reign was fifty-seven years, besides six months and two days (of which time Antonius ruled together with him fourteen years; but the duration of his life was seventy-seven years); upon whose death Tiberius Nero, his wife Julia's son, succeeded. He was now the third emperor; and he sent Valerius Gratus to be procurator of Judea, and to succeed Annius Rufus. This man deprived Ananus of the high priesthood, and appointed Ismael, the son of Phabi, to be high priest. He also deprived him in a little time, and ordained Eleazar, the son of Ananus, who had been high priest before, to be high priest; which office, when he had held for a year, Gratus deprived him of it, and gave the high priesthood to Simon, the son of Camithus; and when he had possessed that dignity no longer than a year, Joseph Caiaphas was made his successor. When Gratus had done those things, he went back to Rome, after he had tarried in Judea eleven years, when Pontius Pilate came as his successor.

Thus showing that Pilate held both offices, one as a military title ( Prefect) as stated in the inscription and one as a fiscal official, charged with collection of taxes ( Procurator) as stated by Josephus.

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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by spin » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:37 pm

pneuma wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:03 am
Here is a list of 7 Prefects of Judea before 44 AD and 6 of the 7 Josephus calls procurators.
Josephus wrote in Greek, never using the word "procurator". Using the old numbering for Josephus, 18.2.2 says nothing about procurators or any possible Greek equivalent: it talks of the management of Judea. 18.31 (18.2.2) tells us Ambivulus "succeeded" Coponius. 18.33 (18.2.2) says Annius Rufus succeeded Ambivulus and his successor, Valerius Gratus, was an eparchos, a prefect, and, 18.35, Pilate succeeded him. In 18.89 (18.4.2) Vitellius sent Marcellus to replace Pilate and in 18.237 (18.4.10 end) Gaius (Caligula) despatched the commander of horse Marullus to Judea.

Don't depend upon translations that are extremely old (such as Whiston). They will lead you astray.
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