Paul Without Acts

Discuss the world of the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, and Egyptians.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:05 am

Yes, sorry. Typo on my part.
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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:08 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 pm
I think one could probably stretch Paul's career long enough to make his escape happen under Aretas IV, as a much younger man, and his main epistolary ministry occur only much later, after 27, could one not? (None of this is my preferred reconstruction, as I have stated.)
a/ It is at least a 32 year gap.
b/ IMO it is implied that Paul's escape from Damascus is part of his troubled life as an evangelist. If so we have a Paul who has a very long career as an evangelist but whose surviving letters come only from the very end of his career,

Andrew Criddle
If we accept that the letters that we now have of Paul are indeed collections of earlier, smaller letters, then we are talking about somewhere in the area of at least 17 letters making up our modern letters. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3487

By ancient standards this makes Paul prolific as a letter writer, which makes it unlikely that we have anywhere near a full sample of his output. I propose that what we do have is probably just what someone like Marcion was able to locate in the areas of Greece, Macedonia, and Asia Minor with Paul's letters from the Levant, Arabia, Syria, and Cilicia lost forever to time as never having been saved and collected.

Pure speculation of course but worth thinking about.

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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:09 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:05 am
Yes, sorry. Typo on my part.
I understand. :thumbup:

It can be a real drag keeping this sorted out.

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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:36 am

As for a terminus of 27 BCE; aside from the name Achaea, what else would lead us to this conclusion?

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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:20 am

Jax wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:36 am
As for a terminus of 27 BCE; aside from the name Achaea, what else would lead us to this conclusion?
The best reading of the "household of Caesar" bit and possibly the mention of Illyricum (which became a province of its own in 27 BC).
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:14 am

Some consider the letters of Paul: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Galatians, or the so called Hauptbriefe, to be the absolute core of the Pauline corpus. Others, such as myself, include 1 Thessalonians and Philippians to that core.
Still others add Ephesians, Colossians, and Philemon to that list, with fewer including 2 Thessalonians and very few adding the pastorals of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus.

Romans, the Corinthian letters, the letters to the Philippians, Thessalonians, Ephesians and Colossians are all to cities. Philemon and the pastorals to individuals.

The letter to the Galatians is different from the above and does not fit with the other letter genre. Galatians is to a group with no apparent geographical location, such as a city, as the letters to the other groups are. Nor are they to an individual.

This is odd.

One way to account for this in my scenario of a Paul writing to military groups in Greece and Macedonia in the 1st century BCE is to acknowledge that the ethnic group known as the Galatians, residing in central Asia Minor, was part of every major conflict of the civil wars taking place in Greece and Macedonia in the 1st century BCE. This could conceivably explain how Paul came into contact with them in the first place.
This however (for me at least) doesn’t really satisfy and begs the question as to why Paul didn’t name a city for the letter as the “Galatians” would have returned home after their part in the conflict had ended ( probably Ankyra). People have been trying to nail down a location for these “Galatians” since forever. With no results.

A more intriguing possibility lends itself to my theory however when one considers the military group known as Legio V Alaudae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_V_Alaudae and http://www.livius.org/articles/legion/legio-v-alaudae/?

This Fifth Legion was a fighting force created by Julius Caesar in Gaul, out of his own pocket, from non-Roman Gaulish provincials, to help fight Vercingetorix in his Gallic wars.
Further, after the Gallic wars, this fifth legion then followed Caesar into Italy, then on to Dyrrhachium in Illyricum under Caesar’s second in command Mark Antony, and while apparently not present when Caesar defeated Pompey at the battle of Pharsalus it was in North Africa for the campaign against Scipio and Cato in 46 BCE. The Legion was then at Munda in Spain.

After the death of their founder Julius Caesar in 44 BCE the Fifth fought on the side of Antony against Octavian at Mutina in 43 BCE and then fought for Octavian and Anthony against the Liberator’s, Brutus and Cassius, at the battle of Philippi in 43-42 BCE.

The Fifth then stayed in the East with Anthony, probably in Athens, until they followed him further east to the Levant where some of their veterans were settled in Beirut.
Probably part of Antony’s Parthian campaign the Legion then was back in Greece to take part in the civil war of Anthony against Octavian that culminated in the battle of Actium in 31 BCE.

Now under Octavian/Augustus the Fifth went back to Spain and many were settled in Mérida.

Could this legion, the V Alaudae, be the Galatians that Paul is writing to? I realize that the Galatians of central Asia Minor were called Galatian because they originally came from Gaul but could this not apply to the Fifth Legion as well? It would seem to help answer the question as to why the Galatians letter has no city attached to it as the legion would be a city on to it’s own self.

I would like to look into this possibility a bit further but don’t want to waste effort on a dead end and my Greek isn’t up to par as far as telling if Paul is actually writing to the Fifth legion or not.

Could someone please tell me if this hypothesis has any basis in possibility or not?

Thanks,

Lane

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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ethan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:56 am

The letters of Paul are addressed mainly to colonies founded by Julius Caesar.

Corinth - Colonia Laus Iulia Corinthiensis
Philippe - Colonia Augusta Iulia Philippensis
Ephesus - Temple of Divine Julius Caesar

Thus who are the target audience of the letters, the Flamen Divi Julii ?

One problem with PAUL that is never addressed , his name, which is a Roman praenomen , but to become a Roman citizen at that time you
had to be sponsored, Plutarch was sponsored by Lucius Mestrius Florus and became 'Lucius Mestrius Plutarch', thus what are Paul's Nomen and Cognomen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_naming_conventions

It is obvious that Luke and Acts are written by the same author and thus PAUL could then be the literally invention of whomever this 'Lucius' was, another Latin name missing it's Nomen and Cognomen.
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 am

Ethan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:56 am
The letters of Paul are addressed mainly to colonies founded by Julius Caesar.

Corinth - Colonia Laus Iulia Corinthiensis
Philippe - Colonia Augusta Iulia Philippensis
Ephesus - Temple of Divine Julius Caesar

Thus who are the target audience of the letters, the Flamen Divi Julii ?
If I'm not mistaken, Corinth was a veteran settlement colony of Julius Caesar while Philippi was a colony of Augustus, and Ephesus never one at all. Rather than a colony, Ephesus became the capitol of proconsular Asia under Augustus after 27 BCE.

The target audience is without a doubt Greek and Roman. Current and retired soldiers of the civil and other wars of Greece, Macedonia, and Asia Minor of the 1st century BCE in my scenario. Not all of them mind you, but just a few in cities like Corinth, Philippi, and Troas, etc. The cult of Christ that Paul is presenting is not a Christ only membership and I see no problem with the people that he is writing to worshiping the cult of Caesar as well.
One problem with PAUL that is never addressed , his name, which is a Roman praenomen , but to become a Roman citizen at that time you
had to be sponsored, Plutarch was sponsored by Lucius Mestrius Florus and became 'Lucius Mestrius Plutarch', thus what are Paul's Nomen and Cognomen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_naming_conventions

It is obvious that Luke and Acts are written by the same author and thus PAUL could then be the literally invention of whomever this 'Lucius' was, another Latin name missing it's Nomen and Cognomen.
Actually Paul uses the name Paulos, not Paulus. While Paulos is a transliteration into Greek of Paulus it makes me wonder why he would do that if indeed his actual name was the Roman Praenomen Paulus. I tend to suspect that Paul's name is actually a Cognomen or 'nick name'. Something like "shorty" or "tiny" perhaps. "Paulus" in Latin means "little" or "small" and "Paulos" would be the Greek version of those. I would also point out that Paul doesn't transliterate "Titus" into "Titos" for example.
Another example of this might be Petros. "Petros", if I understand correctly, is not a proper name of the time at all but rather a noun (rock). Yet another example of this would be "Strabo" the Greek geographer of this period who's name actually means "squinty". Etc.

That "Paulos" and "Petros" are nick names is pure speculation of course but it would make sense if he is corresponding with his war buddies. Again, pure speculation. Of course. :)

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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:24 am

^ I stand corrected. Paul apparently calls "Titus" "Titon".

This will teach me to check my facts before I hit the submit button. :oops:

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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ethan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:52 am

it is common among Romans, Rufus (Red hair), Lentulus (Slow) , Clodius (Hobbler), Caecilius (Blind), Cladius (Lame) , but they are given-names and the name Paulus is Latin written Paulos in Greek, such as Julius is written Ioulios.

The problem with Paul's letters, the target audience don't seem to exist , Ephesus according to archaeology was a cult-center of Divus Julius, they worshiped a deceased man, who preached 'forgiveness of your enemies' .

1 Corinth 1:2 - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth
- Corinth was an important locus for activities of the imperial cult.
- God (θεοῦ) is an Imperial Title.
- Corinth remained largely deserted until Julius Caesar refounded the city as Colonia Laus Iulia Corinthiensis
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