Paul Without Acts

Discuss the world of the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, and Egyptians.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:24 pm

Jax wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:47 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:04 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:34 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:07 pm
Yes, I was thinking about Herodian, too; but I do not have any observations there yet.
How about references that Paul uses? Does he quote anything that could not be before the 1st century?
Not that I know of at the moment, no.
I think that you must agree that, even if I am dead wrong, this gives us an opportunity to view the material from a fresh and different angle as my response to Bernard's statement about a possible interpolation in 1 Corinthians 15 illustrates.

It's worth it for that alone.
Oh, absolutely. No question there. :)
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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:27 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:24 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:47 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:04 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:34 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:07 pm
Yes, I was thinking about Herodian, too; but I do not have any observations there yet.
How about references that Paul uses? Does he quote anything that could not be before the 1st century?
Not that I know of at the moment, no.
I think that you must agree that, even if I am dead wrong, this gives us an opportunity to view the material from a fresh and different angle as my response to Bernard's statement about a possible interpolation in 1 Corinthians 15 illustrates.

It's worth it for that alone.
Oh, absolutely. No question there. :)
:cheers:

Bernard Muller
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:13 pm

to Jax,
Could the passage be a partial interpolation? With the 500 being original and other parts added later to bring the passage more in line with orthodoxy?
Actually, some scholars think the 500 (15:6) may be an interpolation but not the rest of 1 Co 15:3-11, because the reappearance to 500 men has no correspondence in the gospels & Acts.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:33 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:13 pm
to Jax,
Could the passage be a partial interpolation? With the 500 being original and other parts added later to bring the passage more in line with orthodoxy?
Actually, some scholars think the 500 (15:6) may be an interpolation but not the rest of 1 Co 15:3-11, because the reappearance to 500 men has no correspondence in the gospels & Acts.

Cordially, Bernard
My point exactly.

If you view the passage from the point of view of Paul being in the 1st century as a traveling missionary, and rely on Acts and the Gospels, then the 500 seem out of place. It's only when you make the paradigm shift to Paul writing to other militants with a shared experience in the Roman army that the 500 reference not only is no longer out of place but natural and understandable.

andrewcriddle
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:08 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:56 pm
Jax wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:30 am
OMG! we've made it to page two and I haven't been completely eviscerated yet. :D
I doubt there will be a true smoking gun to eliminate your hypothesis. I think there are excellent reasons to reject dates before 27 BC, and there are excellent reasons to reject dates long after AD 70, but everything else in between those poles would seem to be, if we completely eschew the apostolic fathers and the Acts, up for grabs.
If we
a/ give any weight at all to the Aretas reference in 2 Corinthians
b/ date Paul after 27 BCE
then the Aretas involved has to be Aretas IV c 9 BCE to c 40 CE.

Andrew Criddle

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 pm

I think one could probably stretch Paul's career long enough to make his escape happen under Aretas IV, as a much younger man, and his main epistolary ministry occur only much later, after 27, could one not? (None of this is my preferred reconstruction, as I have stated.)
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andrewcriddle
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 pm
I think one could probably stretch Paul's career long enough to make his escape happen under Aretas IV, as a much younger man, and his main epistolary ministry occur only much later, after 27, could one not? (None of this is my preferred reconstruction, as I have stated.)
a/ It is at least a 32 year gap.
b/ IMO it is implied that Paul's escape from Damascus is part of his troubled life as an evangelist. If so we have a Paul who has a very long career as an evangelist but whose surviving letters come only from the very end of his career,

Andrew Criddle

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:27 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 pm
I think one could probably stretch Paul's career long enough to make his escape happen under Aretas IV, as a much younger man, and his main epistolary ministry occur only much later, after 27, could one not? (None of this is my preferred reconstruction, as I have stated.)
a/ It is at least a 32 year gap.
b/ IMO it is implied that Paul's escape from Damascus is part of his troubled life as an evangelist. If so we have a Paul who has a very long career as an evangelist but whose surviving letters come only from the very end of his career,

Andrew Criddle
I certainly agree it is not ideal. But I was tasked with finding something to make it impossible.
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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:47 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 pm
I think one could probably stretch Paul's career long enough to make his escape happen under Aretas IV, as a much younger man, and his main epistolary ministry occur only much later, after 27, could one not? (None of this is my preferred reconstruction, as I have stated.)
You mean Aretas III right?

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Jax
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Re: Paul Without Acts

Post by Jax » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 am

Also we really should use BC/AD or BCE/CE for all dates to keep things from becoming too confusing. It's a pain, but there it is.

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