Phoenician tenses.

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lpetrich
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by lpetrich » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:58 pm

Ethan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:45 am
If people can read the Roman-alphabet then they can read the parent alphabet, Ancient Latin was written in a more Phoenician like script. (...)
The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek one, and though I know the Greek one, it is necessary to learn it separately. The Phoenician alphabet I don't know at all. I think it good manners to post Roman-alphabet transcriptions. Not everybody fluently reads Greek or Hebrew or Phoenician.

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lpetrich
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by lpetrich » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:57 pm

Ethan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:12 am
The verb system of Phoenician is very simple, easier then Greek and Latin because its very English. ...
Nonsense. Check out Phoenician language - Wikipedia -- as far as can be determined, Phoenician was very close to Biblical Hebrew. That goes for its grammar as well as for its vocabulary. Here is a summary of the BH verb system:
  • Person: 1, 2, 3
  • Number: singular, plural
  • Gender: masculine, feminine for 2nd and 3rd persons
  • Aspect: imperfective (non-past), perfective (past)
  • Voice-mood combinations (binyanim):
    • Simple active, passive
    • Intensive active, passive
    • Causative active, passive
    • Reflexive
Also has imperative forms, participles, gerunds, and infinitives

Ancient Greek:
  • Person: 1, 2, 3
  • Number: singular, dual, plural
  • Voice: active, reflexive, passive (the latter two often combined: mediopassive)
  • Aspect: imperfective, perfective
    [*}Tense: present, future, past (for imperfective aspect, past is split into imperfect and aorist)
  • Mood: indicative, subjunctive, optative, imperative
Also has participles, infinitives

Latin:
  • Person: 1, 2, 3
  • Number: singular, plural
  • Voice, active, passive (reflexive is active with pronoun "se")
  • Aspect; mperfective, perfective (passive perfective is a compound tense)
  • Tense: present, future, past
  • Mood: indicative, subjunctive, imperative
Also has participles, infinitives

English verb morphology is MUCH less, and English has numerous compound tense-aspect-mood combinations. This is the extent of English verb morphology for nearly all verbs:
  • Simple present, except for 3rd person singular
  • Simple present in 3s (-s)
  • Simple past (-ed for many verbs)
  • Present participle (-ing)
  • Past/passive participle (-ed for many verbs)

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lpetrich
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by lpetrich » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:44 pm

There's also a difference in root structure. Semitic languages have a triconsonant root structure with lots of variations in its vowels to express various meanings. Indo-European roots are biconsonantal with one varying vowel. IE ablaut has varying amounts of survival in the attested IE languages. Among these survivals are the vowel changes in some verbs' past tenses and past participles in English and other Germanic languages. Like English "sing", "sang", "sung", "song". From Proto-Indo-European *sengwh- with variations *songwh- and *sngwh-, with ablaut variation *CeC-, *CoC-, and *CC-.

I checked on Modern Hebrew verb conjugation - Wikipedia and it's very different.
  • Imperfective
    1. -iCiCoC-, -iCiCeC-
    2. -eCaCeC-
    3. -aCCiC-
    4. -itCaCeC-
    5. -uCCaC, -uCCeC-
    6. -eCuCaC, -eCuCeC-
    7. -iCaCeC-
  • Perfective
    1. CaCaC-, CaCeC-
    2. CiCeC-
    3. hiCCiC-, hiCCaC-
    4. hitCaCeC-, hitCaCaC-
    5. huCCaC-, huCCeC-
    6. CuCaC-, CuCeC-
    7. niCCaC-, niCCeC-
  • Imperative
    1. CeCoC-, CiCC-
    2. CaCeC-
    3. haCCeC-, haCCiC-
    4. hitCaCeC-
    5. -
    6. -
    7. hiCaCeC-
  • Pres. Participle
    1. CoCeC-
    2. meCaCeC
    3. maCCiC-
    4. mitCaCeC-
    5. muCCaC-, muCCeC-
    6. meCuCaC-, muCuCeC-
    7. niCCaC-, niCCeC-
  • Infinitive
    1. CeCoC-, CiCC-
    2. CaCeC-
    3. haCCeC-, haCCiC-
    4. hitCaCeC-
    5. -
    6. -
    7. hiCaCeC-
  • Gerund
    1. CeCiC
    2. CiCuC
    3. CiCuC
    4. haCCaCa
    5. hitCaCeCut
    6. -
    7. -
    8. niCaCCut

Ethan
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by Ethan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:49 am

Modern Hebrew as no bearing on Ancient Phoenician and you are deliberately over complicating the tense system, Phoenician is an archaic and simple seafaring language.

stem + tense

(Latin)
amō
amās
amat

(Greek)
ἀγαπ
ἀγαπᾷς
ἀγαπ

tense + stem

(Phoenician)
ΑΑΕΒ
ΤΑΕΒ
ΙΑΕΒ

(English)
I-love
you-love
he-love


ἀγαπῶ ↔ ἀπῶ ↔ amō
ἀγαπῶ ↔ ἀγπῶ ↔ ῶἀγπ ↔ ΑΑΕΒ.
*γα drops out of vocalization cf. daughter, light, taught. π/m are labials.

www.en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἀγαπάω

tense & stem are swapped around through prefix-suffix metathesis, the by-product of the script direction, some verbs in the Torah are stem+tense.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

Ethan
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Location: England

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by Ethan » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:40 am

Ugaritic has three grammatical cases corresponding to: nominative, genitive, and accusative. Normally, singular nouns take the ending –u, -atu in the nominative, -i, -ati in the genitive and –a, -ata in the accusative.

-Ugarit-
Bitu
Biti
Bita

-Latin-
vīcus
vīcī
vīcum

The genitive case in Ugarit & Latin is identical.

-Ugarit- (MSL = Ruler)
Mslu (βασιλεύς) Mslatu (βασίλισσα)
Msli (βασιλέος) Mslati (βασίλισσας)
Msla (βασιλέᾶ) Mslata (βασίλισσα)


θάλασσα/θάλαττα "Sea" is effeminate, so the Ugarit word is IMATU and they are homologous.

1. ἅλ (root form)
2. λ & מ interchange
3. ἅ & י interchange

"His House"
Biti hu (Ugarit)
vicī suī (Latin)
Ϝοἴκου αὑτοῦ (Greek)


The genitive ending repeats in Latin, vicī suī is thus Biti hui making them 1:1 identical.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

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lpetrich
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by lpetrich » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:26 pm

Ethan wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:49 am
Modern Hebrew as no bearing on Ancient Phoenician and you are deliberately over complicating the tense system, Phoenician is an archaic and simple seafaring language.
Phoenician is closely related to Hebrew, and that means that it likely had the complexities of Hebrew verbs. BTW, Modern Hebrew isn't very grammatically different from Biblical Hebrew, and verbs in other Semitic languages have similar complexities.

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BeJimmiesab
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Phoenician tenses

Post by BeJimmiesab » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:09 am

I have a student in a one-on-one class that is fairly advaced. He wants to work on fluency, and in our classes I try to come up with conversational activities that focus on the areas of dificulty that he has.

He has the present tense, the past tense, the future tense, and even the present perfect tense down farily well. However, he never uses the stranger perfect tenses past perfect, present perfect continuous, etc..

I am having the hardest time trying to find conversational activities or topics which use these rarer tenses. They are used so infrequently in conversation, that Im having trouble creating a topic which focuses on them.

I can always do something like, What is something you have been doing all day or Something youve been doing lately or What had you done before such and such event in your life or something to that evect. But then hes just repeating my form by rote because you can answer them I read all day or I was playing a lot of baseball before I broke my leg. And also this is kind of open-ended and not focused.

Does anyone have any suggestions for creating this type of a lesson? Or some better elicitation techniques? Or a topic which facilitates these type of tenses? Im having trouble finding much. I though I would ask. Thanks

Ethan
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by Ethan » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:22 am

In Latin, no distinction is made between simple past and perfect present, but there is in both Phoenician and Greek.

scrīpsī
ואכתב, ἔγραψα "I wrote" (simple past)
כתבתי, γέγραφα "I have written" (perfect present)

The first person perfect present in Phoenician terminate in "i" as it does in Latin.

אמרתי : dixi "I have spoken"
תרתי : cogitavi "I have thought"
הגדלתי : magnificavi "I have glorified"
בניתי : aedificavi "I have built"
נטעתי : plantavi "I have planted"
עשיתי : feci "I have done"
כנסתי : coacervavi "I have amassed"
פניתי : transivi "I have went"
כתבתי : scripsi "I have written"
ידעתי : cognovi "I have known"
ראיתי : vidi "I have seen"
קניתי : possedi "I have gotten"
סבותי : cessavi "I have withdrawn"

scrīpsī ↔ scīpsī ↔ csīpsī ↔ ctīptī ↔ ctībtī (כתבתי)

-מ -μα
Added to verbal stems to form neuter nouns denoting the result of an action, a particular instance of an action, or the object of an action

משה : δάνεισμα "a loan"
מרצע : χάραγμα "any mark engraved"
מרעה : φρούρημα "that which is watched or guarded"
מרכבה : πορευμα "carriage"
מרוץ : τρόχιμος "running, hasting"
מרגמה : ἀραγμός "crashing shower of stones, beating of the breast in grief,"
מרבד : ῥάμμα "anything sewn or stitched, seam, hem" (ῥαπτός)
מקבה : σκάμμα "that which has been dug, action of digging" (σκαπτός)
מקבה : κόπανος "chopper, cleaver"
מצנפה : στεφάνωμα "crown, wreath, plants used for making garland"
מצוה : θέσμιον "laws, customs, rites, agreements
משבה : στρέμμα "that which is twisted, conspiracy, band of conspirators"
מבגדה : ἀθέτημα "breach of faith, transgression, cancellation"
משכרה : μίσθωμα "price agreed on in hiring, contract-price"
מארת : κατάραμα "curse"
מחול : χόρευμα "a choral dance"
מחזה : ὄψανον "a vision"
מחיה : ζῷον "living being, in art, figure, image"
מחיר : ἀγορασμός "purchasing, purchase, auction"
מחלף : πλόκαμος "locks, wicker baskets"
מחמד : ἐπιθύμημα "object of desire"
מחנה : σκήνημα "camp, dwelling place, nest"
מחסה : ἐπισκιασμός "shading, covering"
מזרק : περιρραντήριον "utensil for besprinkling"
מזמור : ὑμνάριον "hymn, ode"
מזלג : ζάγκλον "reaping-hook, sickle"
מזון : θοίναμα "meal, feast"
מזבה : θυσιαστήριον "altar"
מורג : τρυγάνη "tribula"
מורא : τρόμος "trembling, quaking, quivering (from fear)"
מוקש : δίκτυον "net"
מוקד : αἴθων "a burning heat, fire"
מופה : φάσμα "apparition, phantom, appearance, phenomenon"
מוסדה : κτίσμα "colony, foundation"
מהתלה : ἀπάτημα "deceit, stratagem"
מדרש : ἐρώτημα "that which is asked, question"
מדע : εἴδημα "knowledge"
מגזר : πρίων "saw"
מגלה : κυλίνδριον "roll of a book"
מגור : ἀγυρμός "gathering, crowd"
מבצר : φραγμός "fencing in, blocking up, fortification"
מבטח : πίστωμα "assurance, warrant, pledge"
מבחר : ἀφαίρεμα "that which is taken away as the choice part"
מבוסה : πατησμός "treading on"
מבול : πλήσμη, πλήμμυρα "fill, flood-tide"
מאפה : ὀπτήσιμος "for roasting"
מאכל : φάγημα "food, victuals'
מאבוס : φάτνωμα "offered work, projecting platform"

ת-, -σις, -τις
Added to verb stems to form abstract nouns or nouns of action, result or process

תושיה : σοφιστής "master of one's craft, adept, expert"
תחנת : σκηνίτης dweller in tents or booths, of nomad tribes
תחפניס : δαφνίς "bayberry"
תלבשת : κάλυψις "covering"
תלונה : ἔγκλησις "accusation"
תמרור : πικρότης "pungency, of taste, bitterness"
תנובה : φύτευσις "fruits"
תנחוה : παράκλησις "calling to one's aid"
תעלה : κατακλείς "locks on a canal"
תענך : δαφνιακός "belonging to the bay"
תעצמה : δημόσιος "belonging to the people"
תפוח : ἄπιος "pear"
תפלה : ἀντιβόλησις "prayer"
תפלצה : πλάσις "moulding, conformation"
תפסה : πήδησις "leaping"
תפת : ὄπτησις "roasting, baking of"
תקוה : προσδοκίας "looking for, expectation"
תרבות : κάρπωσις "offering offruits, use, profit"
תרומה : αἵρεσις "taking, choice"
תרועה : σύριγξις "playing on the syrinx"
תרועה : κρότησις "clapping, striking (as a sign of relief)
תרח : χωρίτης "countryman, inhabitant of a country town"
תרן : δόρυ "of timber, esp. for ships"
תשבץ : ποίκιλσις "embroidery"
תשומת : κατάθεσις "paying down, payment"

-י- , ίζω
Used to form verbs from nouns, adjectives and other verbs

אחניך : ἐγκαινίζω "make afresh"
אודיע : γνωρίζω "make known"
אושיע : σωΐζω "to save"
אוחיל : ἐλπίζω "hope for"
אמטיר : νοτίζω "to water"
אשמיע : ἀκουτίζω "make to hear"
אשכיל : σοφίζω "make wise"
אקטיל : κτενίζω "comb ones hair"
אהציל : ἐκσῴΐζω "keep safe, preserve from danger"
אריב : ἐρίζω "wrangle, strive, quarrel"
אציע : κοιτάζω "put to bed"

רקיע : τροχίζω "furnish with wheels, to turn round on the wheel"
ידיד : ἀγαπάζω "treat with affection"
נפיל : νέφος, νεφελίζω) "wrap in clouds, clouds of men (metaphor)"

Comparison
א-הלל = ἀγάλλ-ω "I glorify"
ת-הלה = ἄγαλ-τις "rejoicing""
מ-הלה = ἄγαλ-μα "that which is glorified"

Genesis (γένεσις) as this same verbal prefix converted into a suffix, which was originally, tis (τις), the Phoenician word for Genesis is תחלה

γενετιςתחלה

Image
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

Ethan
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Location: England

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by Ethan » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:49 am

Theologians keep repeating the same lie over and over and have spammed Wikipedia and the internet with false information, regarding the origin of the Phoenician alphabet. The fact to the matter, the origin is UNKNOWN. No sane scholar can tell you the origin of the alphabet, they do not know, one of the main reasons, it origins falls within the Late Bronze age collapse also known as the Greek dark ages. This transition period between Mycenaean and Greek or Ugaritic and Phoenician is mostly void of information. We know that Ugaritic and Mycenaean both dropped its original scripts and after the Late Bronze age collapse the succeeding languages where written in the Phoenician script.

A comparison of the former and Phoenician script may serve as clues, the word LION and its feminine counterpart, LIONESS are both the same word in Ugaritic and Mycenaean, so a good word to compare, the gender is coloured.

LION (ל־ב־ו)

Mycenaean
Image

Ugaritic
Image

LIONESS (ל־ב־יא)

Mycenaean
Image

Ugaritic
Image

B & WO comparison.
Image

The W in WO dropped out in Latin, RE-WO > RE-O > LE-O "leō", the RE swapped places in Phoenician and W interchanges I and E became A. RE-WO > ER-I > AR-I/ארי. θηρίον _ αρί _ ארי.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

Ethan
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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Post by Ethan » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:25 am

The principle part in the word "to be" is the same in Greek and Phoenician.

ειμι

μι is the personal ending, the stem is εi.

ei- (Phoenician, Greek)
es- (Latin)
as- (Sanskrit)

These verbs are irregular, but one can force the verb to be regular, in Latin, the stem is ES added to the personal ending, M, so the regular
verb in Latin is ESM, trying to pronounce this word produced a u between s and m, ESM > ESUM > SUM.

The future tense is formed with an infix, ει (stem) _ s (infix) + personal ending.

ειμι > ειsο > εsο

In Latin, when s is surrounded by two vowels, it turns into r.

ειsο > εsο > erō

The Phoenician word is אהיה, the stem is הי the unchanged letters in ειμι
*א־הי־ה rearranges into הי־ה־א > ειsα, eso, erō

הייתי

Identify the ει (stem), breaks down into הי־י־תי (stem + infix + personal ending)

הי is es in Latin, so eii is esi, the s is surrounded by vowels thus turns into r, eri, plus the personal ending, erim written eram. The verb הי־י־תי is formed like a Perfect tense, the more original Greek form is ἔσκον/הי־י־תי, the second person is ἔησ-θα/היית and ἔσκε/היי in the third.

Phoenician as an Aorist form of ειμι, Greek does not, but i can still conjugate from ειμι,

ואהי (ἔ-εισα)
ותהי (ἔ-εισας)
ויהי (ἔ-εισε)

אהי (εισα) *erō
תהי (εισας) *eris, ere
יהי (εισε) * erit

The Phoenician participle is בן (Bn), Gk. ὢν, ὀν, in Latin this is †sōns but unused. "being".

2 Chronicles 33:1 : בן שתים עשרה שנה : ὢν δέκα δύο ἐτῶν (being twelve years)
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

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