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Re: Phoenician tenses.

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:58 pm
by lpetrich
Ethan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:45 am
If people can read the Roman-alphabet then they can read the parent alphabet, Ancient Latin was written in a more Phoenician like script. (...)
The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek one, and though I know the Greek one, it is necessary to learn it separately. The Phoenician alphabet I don't know at all. I think it good manners to post Roman-alphabet transcriptions. Not everybody fluently reads Greek or Hebrew or Phoenician.

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:57 pm
by lpetrich
Ethan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:12 am
The verb system of Phoenician is very simple, easier then Greek and Latin because its very English. ...
Nonsense. Check out Phoenician language - Wikipedia -- as far as can be determined, Phoenician was very close to Biblical Hebrew. That goes for its grammar as well as for its vocabulary. Here is a summary of the BH verb system:
  • Person: 1, 2, 3
  • Number: singular, plural
  • Gender: masculine, feminine for 2nd and 3rd persons
  • Aspect: imperfective (non-past), perfective (past)
  • Voice-mood combinations (binyanim):
    • Simple active, passive
    • Intensive active, passive
    • Causative active, passive
    • Reflexive
Also has imperative forms, participles, gerunds, and infinitives

Ancient Greek:
  • Person: 1, 2, 3
  • Number: singular, dual, plural
  • Voice: active, reflexive, passive (the latter two often combined: mediopassive)
  • Aspect: imperfective, perfective
    [*}Tense: present, future, past (for imperfective aspect, past is split into imperfect and aorist)
  • Mood: indicative, subjunctive, optative, imperative
Also has participles, infinitives

Latin:
  • Person: 1, 2, 3
  • Number: singular, plural
  • Voice, active, passive (reflexive is active with pronoun "se")
  • Aspect; mperfective, perfective (passive perfective is a compound tense)
  • Tense: present, future, past
  • Mood: indicative, subjunctive, imperative
Also has participles, infinitives

English verb morphology is MUCH less, and English has numerous compound tense-aspect-mood combinations. This is the extent of English verb morphology for nearly all verbs:
  • Simple present, except for 3rd person singular
  • Simple present in 3s (-s)
  • Simple past (-ed for many verbs)
  • Present participle (-ing)
  • Past/passive participle (-ed for many verbs)

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:44 pm
by lpetrich
There's also a difference in root structure. Semitic languages have a triconsonant root structure with lots of variations in its vowels to express various meanings. Indo-European roots are biconsonantal with one varying vowel. IE ablaut has varying amounts of survival in the attested IE languages. Among these survivals are the vowel changes in some verbs' past tenses and past participles in English and other Germanic languages. Like English "sing", "sang", "sung", "song". From Proto-Indo-European *sengwh- with variations *songwh- and *sngwh-, with ablaut variation *CeC-, *CoC-, and *CC-.

I checked on Modern Hebrew verb conjugation - Wikipedia and it's very different.
  • Imperfective
    1. -iCiCoC-, -iCiCeC-
    2. -eCaCeC-
    3. -aCCiC-
    4. -itCaCeC-
    5. -uCCaC, -uCCeC-
    6. -eCuCaC, -eCuCeC-
    7. -iCaCeC-
  • Perfective
    1. CaCaC-, CaCeC-
    2. CiCeC-
    3. hiCCiC-, hiCCaC-
    4. hitCaCeC-, hitCaCaC-
    5. huCCaC-, huCCeC-
    6. CuCaC-, CuCeC-
    7. niCCaC-, niCCeC-
  • Imperative
    1. CeCoC-, CiCC-
    2. CaCeC-
    3. haCCeC-, haCCiC-
    4. hitCaCeC-
    5. -
    6. -
    7. hiCaCeC-
  • Pres. Participle
    1. CoCeC-
    2. meCaCeC
    3. maCCiC-
    4. mitCaCeC-
    5. muCCaC-, muCCeC-
    6. meCuCaC-, muCuCeC-
    7. niCCaC-, niCCeC-
  • Infinitive
    1. CeCoC-, CiCC-
    2. CaCeC-
    3. haCCeC-, haCCiC-
    4. hitCaCeC-
    5. -
    6. -
    7. hiCaCeC-
  • Gerund
    1. CeCiC
    2. CiCuC
    3. CiCuC
    4. haCCaCa
    5. hitCaCeCut
    6. -
    7. -
    8. niCaCCut

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:49 am
by Ethan
Modern Hebrew as no bearing on Ancient Phoenician and you are deliberately over complicating the tense system, Phoenician is an archaic and simple seafaring language.

stem + tense

(Latin)
amō
amās
amat

(Greek)
ἀγαπ
ἀγαπᾷς
ἀγαπ

tense + stem

(Phoenician)
ΑΑΕΒ
ΤΑΕΒ
ΙΑΕΒ

(English)
I-love
you-love
he-love


ἀγαπῶ ↔ ἀπῶ ↔ amō
ἀγαπῶ ↔ ἀγπῶ ↔ ῶἀγπ ↔ ΑΑΕΒ.
*γα drops out of vocalization cf. daughter, light, taught. π/m are labials.

www.en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἀγαπάω

tense & stem are swapped around through prefix-suffix metathesis, the by-product of the script direction, some verbs in the Torah are stem+tense.

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:40 am
by Ethan
Ugaritic has three grammatical cases corresponding to: nominative, genitive, and accusative. Normally, singular nouns take the ending –u, -atu in the nominative, -i, -ati in the genitive and –a, -ata in the accusative.

-Ugarit-
Bitu
Biti
Bita

-Latin-
vīcus
vīcī
vīcum

The genitive case in Ugarit & Latin is identical.

-Ugarit- (MSL = Ruler)
Mslu (βασιλεύς) Mslatu (βασίλισσα)
Msli (βασιλέος) Mslati (βασίλισσας)
Msla (βασιλέᾶ) Mslata (βασίλισσα)


θάλασσα/θάλαττα "Sea" is effeminate, so the Ugarit word is IMATU and they are homologous.

1. ἅλ (root form)
2. λ & מ interchange
3. ἅ & י interchange

"His House"
Biti hu (Ugarit)
vicī suī (Latin)
Ϝοἴκου αὑτοῦ (Greek)


The genitive ending repeats in Latin, vicī suī is thus Biti hui making them 1:1 identical.

Re: Phoenician tenses.

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:26 pm
by lpetrich
Ethan wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:49 am
Modern Hebrew as no bearing on Ancient Phoenician and you are deliberately over complicating the tense system, Phoenician is an archaic and simple seafaring language.
Phoenician is closely related to Hebrew, and that means that it likely had the complexities of Hebrew verbs. BTW, Modern Hebrew isn't very grammatically different from Biblical Hebrew, and verbs in other Semitic languages have similar complexities.