Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centaurs.

Discuss the world of the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, and Egyptians.
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Clive
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Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centaurs.

Post by Clive »

How did people of the medieval period explain physical phenomena, such as eclipses or the distribution of land and water on the globe? What creatures did they think they might encounter: angels, devils, witches, dogheaded people? This fascinating book explores the ways in which medieval people categorized the world, concentrating on the division between the natural and the supernatural and showing how the idea of the supernatural came to be invented in the Middle Ages. Robert Bartlett examines how theologians and others sought to draw lines between the natural, the miraculous, the marvelous and the monstrous, and the many conceptual problems they encountered as they did so. The final chapter explores the extraordinary thought-world of Roger Bacon as a case study exemplifying these issues. By recovering the mentalities of medieval writers and thinkers the book raises the critical question of how we deal with beliefs we no longer share.
http://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/su ... iddle-ages

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/histo ... .2.ii.html
The History of Animals

By Aristotle

Written 350 B.C.E

Translated by D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson

Go to previous Table of Contents

Book II Go to next

Part 1

With regard to animals in general, some parts or organs are common to all, as has been said, and some are common only to particular genera; the parts, moreover, are identical with or different from one another on the lines already repeatedly laid down. For as a general rule all animals that are generically distinct have the majority of their parts or organs different in form or species; and some of them they have only analogically similar and diverse in kind or genus, while they have others that are alike in kind but specifically diverse; and many parts or organs exist in some animals, but not in others.

For instance, viviparous quadrupeds have all a head and a neck, and all the parts or organs of the head, but they differ each from other in the shapes of the parts. The lion has its neck composed of one single bone instead of vertebrae; but, when dissected, the animal is found in all internal characters to resemble the dog.

The quadrupedal vivipara instead of arms have forelegs. This is true of all quadrupeds, but such of them as have toes have, practically speaking, organs analogous to hands; at all events, they use these fore-limbs for many purposes as hands. And they have the limbs on the left-hand side less distinct from those on the right than man.

The fore-limbs then serve more or less the purpose of hands in quadrupeds, with the exception of the elephant. This latter animal has its toes somewhat indistinctly defined, and its front legs are much bigger than its hinder ones; it is five-toed, and has short ankles to its hind feet. But it has a nose such in properties and such in size as to allow of its using the same for a hand. For it eats and drinks by lifting up its food with the aid of this organ into its mouth, and with the same organ it lifts up articles to the driver on its back; with this organ it can pluck up trees by the roots, and when walking through water it spouts the water up by means of it; and this organ is capable of being crooked or coiled at the tip, but not of flexing like a joint, for it is composed of gristle.
The thread about Josephus' Jesus notes he was flogged but would not stop crying woe to Jerusalem, so he was judged to be mad.

This is not recognised but what was going on in many trials is a form of experiment - is the person lying or telling the truth, or they another category, demon possessed or mad.
This accessible study of witches, from their western origins in Greece and Rome, to their persecution in the 16th century and 20th-century paganism, aims to challenge some commonly held misconceptions about witches and witchcraft. Many witches, for example, were male and witches went unharmed and unpersecuted for much of history. Maxwell-Stuart discusses the connection between magic and heresy, sterotypical images of witches through the centuries and methods used to identify suspects. Chapters also consider famous trials and witches and the social and religious context for the witches who `plagued' North America and Protestant England in the 17th century. The study is now available in a small paperback format.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eKY1 ... CCAQ6AEwAA

This rational trying to work out what is happening and drawing conclusions, is something we have done for a long time. The problems do repeat though - false beliefs, prejudice (pre judging!) rhetoric, logic fails...

Are we not attempting the same? Rationally looking at the past and making judgements?

But are we not confusing matters? I think we too easily impute our ideas on the ancients - who had not invented many of the technologies and ideas we use all the time.

I think the classic error we make is about the category supernatural. It did not exist before about 1100!

Before that everyone is trying to fit their round experiences into a quite small set of square holes!

For example, in discussing elsewhere if Jesus is an an angel we need to be very clear how people then - and the views of the writers and editors of Genesis may also be very different to those of the New Testament - were thinking and what ideas they had in their heads - like gods did walk in gardens, could show their bums to Moses, did live in the Ark, could have sex with men and women...
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
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Re: Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centa

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What I have come to see is that scholars have such disagreements in part because they typically answer the question of high or low Christology on the basis of the paradigm I have just described—that the divine and human realms are categorically distinct, with a great chasm separating the two. The problem is that most ancient people— whether Christian, Jewish, or pagan— did not have this paradigm. For them, the human realm was not an absolute category separated from the divine realm by an enormous and unbridgable crevasse. On the contrary, the human and divine were two continuums that could, and did, overlap.
Copied from thread here, Ehrman.

It is not obvious that the solution to the observation that we now see God here humans there is that the ancients saw a continuum.

I am asserting, following Bartlett, that the category "supernatural" is an invention of the 11th century CE.

Before that people who had made these distinctions used the categories of air, water, earth and fire. Outside and above or supernature did not exist - so we misunderstand things quite badly. Gods, demons etc have always done stuff - thunder, punishing because of war or disease, making the rain fall on the just and unjust alike, having gods whisper back to you what you say in a cave...

So Ehrman is wrong to talk of a continuum. It wasn't.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centa

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Clive wrote: I am asserting, following Bartlett, that the category "supernatural" is an invention of the 11th century CE.

Before that people who had made these distinctions used the categories of air, water, earth and fire. Outside and above or supernature did not exist - so we misunderstand things quite badly.
There was the idea of the fifth cosmic element of nature - the aether.

eg1: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=wM7 ... 22&f=false

EG2: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PuY ... 22&f=false
And they allowed Apollonius to ask questions;
and he asked them of what they thought the cosmos was composed;
but they replied:

"Of elements."

"Are there then four" he asked.

"Not four," said Iarchas, "but five."

"And how can there be a fifth," said Apollonius,
"alongside of water and air and earth and fire ?"

"There is the ether", replied the other,
"which we must regard as the stuff of which gods are made;
for just as all mortal creatures inhale the air,
so do immortal and divine natures inhale the ether."

Apollonius again asked which was the first of the elements,
and Iarchas answered:

"All are simultaneous, for a living creature is not born bit by bit."

"Am I," said Apollonius, "to regard
the universe as a living creature?"

"Yes," said the other, "if you have a sound knowledge of it,
for it engenders all living things."

- The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, Philostratus, 220AD.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
Clive
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Re: Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centa

Post by Clive »

I think you will find "supernature" outside nature, is a newer, later, separate category to aether. My point is that shown above precisely - the gods were thought to be natural, made of a natural stuff, aether. It is a later idea that the gods - one god - is, are outside nature.

Is that key to why we went monotheistic? You need one cause, ie one god?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
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Re: Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centa

Post by Clive »

Is there a general problem with translation that someone's recent understanding is very unlikely to be like someone from centuries ago?

Do translators need to state all their assumptions on the meaning of words?

And in anthropology, what precisely do people being studied think souls, gods, demons etc are? Are most people using concepts introduced by a missionary, slave trader or conqueror?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Thor
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Re: Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centa

Post by Thor »

Clive wrote:Is there a general problem with translation that someone's recent understanding is very unlikely to be like someone from centuries ago?

Do translators need to state all their assumptions on the meaning of words?

And in anthropology, what precisely do people being studied think souls, gods, demons etc are? Are most people using concepts introduced by a missionary, slave trader or conqueror?
Yes, to some degree. With Noam Chomsky came a breakthrough in linguistics. The older field of philology had to adapt to science we today know as cognitive conceptualization in linguistics. Take the concept of sunrise and you will see it obviously originates from a geocentric view of the world. Today we know the sun does not rise, but the earth moves. Great metaphor, we still use it, but understand it very differently.

Barbarian... One who does not speak Greek. etc...
Clive
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Re: Angels, sons of gods, nephilim, dog headed people, centa

Post by Clive »

Is there a similar misunderstanding about fully god fully man? Is it only the bringing together of aether, earth, fire air and water?

A new heaven and earth are just proto-chemistry, a variation on alchemy.

Maybe phrases like born of a woman are just part of a recipe?

What Christianity really did was merge Greek multi god thinking with Persian One god thinking. It was actually a change in understanding the world - religion is possibly a much later category, as is supernatural.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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