sentenced to death for atheism’

Discussion about the Quran, hadith, the history of Islam, etc.
iskander
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by iskander » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:06 pm

Cornell Law School
http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/co ... rabia#f5-2


Death penalty database : Saudi Arabia
Number of Individuals Currently Under Sentence of Death
Dozens or possibly hundreds are believed to be on death row, [3] but no official data is available and we cannot confirm an exact figure. The imposition of death sentences is shrouded in secrecy. Amnesty was able to confirm 10 new death sentences in 2012, 6 in 2013 and 44 in 2014, but noted in each case that the real number was likely much higher. [4]
(This question was updated on October 9, 2015.)

outhouse
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by outhouse » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:12 pm

spin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:48 pm
outhouse makes a concession for Jews, "most Jews", a concession he is not prepared to make for Muslims
.

Correct.

Knowing muslim fanaticism compared to that of Judaism and Christianity is a specialty of mine, based on the attempt at rational and reasonable conversation about history with said groups on a daily basis.

WE ARE talking about levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism in each group.

Putting aside outhouse's demonstrated inability to process "real history",
Says a guy who refuses most credible scholars :facepalm:

outhouse
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by outhouse » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm

spin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:48 pm
outhouse has chosen to make statements against all Muslims based on the actions of very few.
What I stated is not even up for debate.

What an ignorant statement, you factually assume to know how many Muslims I deal with on a daily basis without even knowing me personally.

I'm sorry that you show severe ignorance on the topic of modern religious practice.

I will put this into terms a simpleton can understand. I hope you can follow.


I think we can all agree YEC Christians hold higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism then typical Christians ???


I think we can all agree orthodox Jews hold higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism then typical Jews???



Muslims fall into the exact category of fanaticism and fundamentalism levels that of YEC Christians and Orthodox Jews Spin, whether you like it or not. I can place muslims into this category with credibility and certainty based on how much credible history muslims reject. That is how we get to DEFINE the level of fanaticism.

Look at yourself, agnostic/atheist what ever you want wish to call yourself, you hold levels of fanaticism by how far you remove yourself from credible history. THE DIFFERENCE THERE DUDE is that evidence will change your mind, and it factually does not change a muslims mind.

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spin
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by spin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:40 am

outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:12 pm
spin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:48 pm
outhouse makes a concession for Jews, "most Jews", a concession he is not prepared to make for Muslims
.

Correct.

Knowing muslim fanaticism compared to that of Judaism and Christianity is a specialty of mine, based on the attempt at rational and reasonable conversation about history with said groups on a daily basis.

WE ARE talking about levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism in each group.

Putting aside outhouse's demonstrated inability to process "real history",
Says a guy who refuses most credible scholars :facepalm:
Your inability to construct even a rudimentary argument does not flatter you.

I understand your desire to cling to recognized scholars in our field, given your general failure to develop any of the skills necessary to deal with the materials available. They provide you with a certain rudder effect. However, your reliance on them doesn't put you in a position to make judgments, only assertions.
Last edited by spin on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

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spin
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by spin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:49 am

outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
spin wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:48 pm
outhouse has chosen to make statements against all Muslims based on the actions of very few.
What I stated is not even up for debate.
I.e. you are not able to debate your stated views.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
What an ignorant statement, you factually assume to know how many Muslims I deal with on a daily basis without even knowing me personally.
This deflection doesn't help you stave off the shit you bring upon yourself for your outrageously racist remarks.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
I'm sorry that you show severe ignorance on the topic of modern religious practice.
Had you understood your previous statement, you might understand that you were shooting yourself in the foot here.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
I will put this into terms a simpleton can understand.
I'd hoped you could aspire to a higher standard than your usual faire.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
I hope you can follow.
Whether I could or should are two different things.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
I think we can all agree YEC Christians hold higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism then typical Christians ???
If you could make simple distinctions such as "than"/"then", it would help your credibility. Why do you have to beat up YECs, when you could point out that almost a majority voted for Donald Trump, for a massive wall between the states and Mexico, for a refusal to do anything about global warming, for blaming immigrants rather than dealing with abusive business practices. It would seem 49+% of American voters are totally unacceptable, irresponsible fools who have insufficient thought even for their own children's futures, yet here you are blowing your wad about Muslims, YECs, and orthodox Jews.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
I think we can all agree orthodox Jews hold higher levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism then typical Jews???
I don't really care that much about fanaticism. One person's fanatic is another's inspiration. You remember that black fanatic with a dream. He was assassinated for dreaming.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
Muslims fall into the exact category of fanaticism...
Having been to Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Syria, Israel, Jordan and Egypt, I have met Muslims in all those countries who were probably better educated than you, cosmopolitan, intelligent, socially responsible, and extremely welcoming and hospitable. Fanaticism is certainly an unreasonable tag for any of them. As long as you don't have to deal directly with human beings you can be as dehumanizing as you like.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
...and fundamentalism levels that of YEC Christians and Orthodox Jews Spin, whether you like it or not.
My likes are not at issue here. Your cognitive biases and your racism are.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
I can place muslims into this category with credibility and certainty based on how much credible history muslims reject. That is how we get to DEFINE the level of fanaticism.
I saw neither a serious attempt at a meaningful definition nor any attempt to muster evidence for your shallow views on Muslims. And don't think that I am a spokesperson for Islam or the crimes of a few Muslims. I find your wholesale dismissal of all Muslims as fanatics below contempt. There is no analysis or evidence in your position. You are generally evidence-free in all your stated positions, so I guess I can't expect less of you here.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
Look at yourself, agnostic/atheist what ever you want wish to call yourself,...
Putting labels on things instead of dealing with those things is just a cognitive bias and it should show you that you are debasing your own thought.
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
...you hold levels of fanaticism by how far you remove yourself from credible history.
I suppose that readers should trust the assertions of someone unable to do more than espouse platitudes, not to mention someone who thinks using capital letters to make a statement is cool....
outhouse wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:29 pm
THE DIFFERENCE THERE DUDE is that evidence will change your mind, and it factually does not change a muslims mind.
Doesn't that basically make you a Muslim according to your logic?

I'm sorry that you cannot see the amount of nonsense you've posted, but I'm more concerned about the fact that you cannot accept people as human beings, but must categorize them and make idiotic pronouncements about those in categories you don't like. You seem to be a victim of misleading vividness, "look, Muslim terrorist!" You don't consider two Israeli prime ministers were terrorists and another an ethnic cleanser. You don't consider western war crimes in Iraq based on lies. You don't consider the vast number of horrors committed locally were done by ordinary Americans, school shootings, bombings. How many Muslim Gacys and Dahmers have you read about? "Look, Muslim terrorist!"

There are enough homegrown fanatics for you to focus on. But fanaticism isn't really at the center of your rant. It's who you are told to mindlessly hate at the moment. Remember 9/11. Remember Pearl Harbor. Remember the Maine. Real Muslim terrorists know how to play to the same audience. You hating Muslims is good for their business. It doesn't matter that most Muslims are most interested in getting through the day, preferably without stray stinger missiles. But your hating Muslims helps isolate Muslims more and will stimulate a few more to join the nutter ranks. Your racism against Muslims is counterproductive.

It would be nice if you stopped being a dick and treated people as people and not categories.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

outhouse
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by outhouse » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:02 pm

Wow!!! so many fallacious empty replies. So typical of Spin.

Cannot accept people as human beings? our species are still technically animals for the most part. Many cultures will not let us forget it either.

The DIFFERENCE DUDE is the ability to learn from our history and not make the same repeated mistakes people have made since people evolved.

You can wish to remain blind to fanaticism and fundamentalism that brings people to genocide over stagnant interpretation of MYTH alone.

But you ARE NOT intellectually superior here, and you have no credibility to talk down to me like you fallaciously attempt.

There is nothing racist about making a religion own its embarrassment to humanity. The same goes for YEC and orthodox Jews. In the future all 3 will be looked at as a stain on humanity.

I wont sink to your pathetic political rhetoric you tried to weasel in, instead you avoid the actual topic of different levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism that keeps some humans more primitive than others. Grammar Nazi-ism is a fallacious sign of weakness, but that was the most valuable thing you said. Thank You [time marker for then and comparative statements for than].

outhouse
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by outhouse » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:19 pm

spin wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:40 am
, given your general failure to develop any of the skills necessary to deal with the materials available.
Funny I have my own hypothesis that textual criticism cannot explain or refute due to the lack of actual evidence in the field. Yet Mark being a product due to the fall of the temple, and the way the proto Christians shared information before the fall of the temple, and Jesus being Johns student taking over his movement after his murder, are some of the best things to come out of this forum that usually deals with crackpots imaginations. NOW if you have a more credible hypothesis that explains the text under a page long as a summary, I would love to read it.

The problem for scholars is not the ability to analyze word for word in all the text, hell its been done poorly for 2 thousand years. If one cannot read between the lines, one is left as audience to the authors intent, missing the whole picture.

You have the education over me for textual criticism, sad your view of the past is so far off the mark. You have no credibility to criticize my view of historicity of the origins of Christianity from the safety of the agnostic fence.

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spin
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by spin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:03 pm

outhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:02 pm
Wow!!! so many fallacious empty replies. So typical of Spin.

Cannot accept people as human beings? our species are still technically animals for the most part. Many cultures will not let us forget it either.

The DIFFERENCE DUDE is the ability to learn from our history and not make the same repeated mistakes people have made since people evolved.

You can wish to remain blind to fanaticism and fundamentalism that brings people to genocide over stagnant interpretation of MYTH alone.

But you ARE NOT intellectually superior here, and you have no credibility to talk down to me like you fallaciously attempt.

There is nothing racist about making a religion own its embarrassment to humanity. The same goes for YEC and orthodox Jews. In the future all 3 will be looked at as a stain on humanity.

I wont sink to your pathetic political rhetoric you tried to weasel in, instead you avoid the actual topic of different levels of fanaticism and fundamentalism that keeps some humans more primitive than others. Grammar Nazi-ism is a fallacious sign of weakness, but that was the most valuable thing you said. Thank You [time marker for then and comparative statements for than].
'You've still failed to show that you are not a racist disgrace. No evidence, no argument. Merely the usual shallow dodging one has come to expect. When you make an assertion like the one that starts your response here, you need to demonstrate it, otherwise it remains as hollow as most of the nonsense you serve up. The cliches you provide only demonstrate the depth of your thought. You couldn't drown a snake in it.
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spin
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by spin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:46 pm

outhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:19 pm
spin wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:40 am
, given your general failure to develop any of the skills necessary to deal with the materials available.
Funny I have my own hypothesis that textual criticism cannot explain or refute due to the lack of actual evidence in the field.
There are so many skills beyond textual criticism implied in the comment you are trying to respond to, including philology, form criticism, history, manuscript analysis... before you can come to any conclusions about the materials we are dealing with, you lay your opinions to the mercy of translators and apologists and are divorced from the material. This is why you have to trust people who you cannot afford to trust. You cannot speak without their input.
outhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:19 pm
Yet Mark being a product due to the fall of the temple, and the way the proto Christians shared information before the fall of the temple, and Jesus being Johns student taking over his movement after his murder, are some of the best things to come out of this forum that usually deals with crackpots imaginations. NOW if you have a more credible hypothesis that explains the text under a page long as a summary, I would love to read it.
You confuse "hypothesis" with "web of conjecture". Yes, you can ramble through a bunch of names, but hell, people need content not your facile waffle. Your comments are so threadbare I don't know why you bother to reveal yourself that way.
outhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:19 pm
The problem for scholars is not the ability to analyze word for word in all the text, hell its been done poorly for 2 thousand years. If one cannot read between the lines, one is left as audience to the authors intent, missing the whole picture.
Because scholarship is not understood by you, you cannot see that significant changes have happened in the development of analysis in various scholarly pursuits, especially since the Enlightenment. (That name sort of gives it away.) The crapping on that you do would not even be possible if it weren't through the thinkers of the Enlightenment, who put analysis ahead of tradition. Talking about two thousand years, is irrelevant. It is the past 200 years that are significant. From the Enlightenment christian scholars have had to come to terms with objectivity and evidence. It is only then that significant text analysis could begin without being slave to tradition. It's only then that christian scholars have had to become subservient to the rule of evidence and history. This is how christianity could bring forth the first flailing attempts at the historicity of Jesus, that led to the work of Albert Schweitzer, the first historical Jesus quest. Over the last century christianity has pushed back trying to take back control of the means to analyze itself and a vast number of historical Jesus books have been published in the effort. The Enlightenment was fundamentally the birth of secular thought in western society. (Of course, when dealing with the field of biblical studies, there is a near monopoly held by christian tradition and its manifestations at any given time, so there is a movement behind the christianizing thought to receive and elaborate it. Secular analysis is for the most part without tradition and so has no significant entity to pass its findings and thoughts on to.)

The "whole picture"—as you categorize that view that you have of christianity—is so lacking in detail and significance that it makes me think of an illustration for a cheap children's book. To read between the lines means that you have the background knowledge regarding the literary context in which the new testament writers worked. To get to know the literary context you need to have a good understanding of the tropes, metaphors and language of the writers, the materials they drew upon, and the historical context within which they wrote. Your naive simpleton approach simply does not cut it.
outhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:19 pm
You have the education over me for textual criticism, sad your view of the past is so far off the mark.
You have not demonstrated any historical chops, so your comment about the past doesn't seem to be based in reality.
outhouse wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:19 pm
You have no credibility to criticize my view of historicity of the origins of Christianity from the safety of the agnostic fence.
You seem not to have a clue about agnosticism... which is par for the course. If you advocate a specific position, then you are liable to be victim of a number of cognitive biases entailed with holding such a position. The agnostic is far freer to develop analyses of, and perceive, the materials we deal with minus many of those cognitive biases. Agnosticism is a far better position from which to make rational analyses. Being agnostic doesn't mean that you are stuck on the fence it means that you can be on the fence until something better comes along. Being in the shit usually doesn't allow you to get out of it. The fence is obviously better.

But then you have merely sought a means to change the basic topic away from your racism, your ridiculous tarring of all Muslims with your bile. Rather than deal with the terrorists and perpetrators of violence around you, you focus on would-be culprits in a community you are fundamentally ignorant of. Instead of being a state propaganda clone, you should investigate the Muslims in society, ones who have taken positions of respect and value in governments and universities, and so curb your lazy tendencies to label people rather than knowing what you are talking about.
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outhouse
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Re: sentenced to death for atheism’

Post by outhouse » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:15 am

Yes please let in refugees that hate your culture, your religion and your country.

A people that promote

Beheadings
Rape
Slavery
Female genital mutilation
hostage taking
jihad
oppression of women
Honor killings
pedophilia
burning people alive


maybe you could answer why this religion alone commits more genocide and terrorism then any other religious activity?


Please keep the fallacious attacks up, it shows your intellectual level

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