Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Discussion about the Quran, hadith, the history of Islam, etc.
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bcedaifu
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Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:40 am

Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by bcedaifu » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:11 am

manuscript

Two items, remarkable, in my view, of note here:
a. the manuscript was discovered in a library in Tubingen, not in the desert sands. Why didn't the high humidity destroy it?
b. The AGE of this document is just remarkable. It is far older than most of our patristic evidence from Christianity. The text dates from 675 CE.

Are there any more manuscripts floating around in someone's library?
Here's a Christian manuscript from about the same century:
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/camb ... manuscript

Anyone know whether or not the Tubingen manuscript corresponds closely to the existing flavours of Quran, and, secondly, whether or not anyone has undertaken the task of translating this ancient volume into English?

"time of Muhammed", how do we know that time?

outhouse
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Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by outhouse » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:27 pm


Great find.


To bad these people are al literalist and anything at all not in line with the Koran they know, will by denied.

There is no scholarship in islam that is credible from what im learning. To be in islam requires literalism

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Blood
Posts: 897
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Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by Blood » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:41 pm

This particular item was donated to the university in the 19th century.
Has it been mis-dated this whole time?
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

Clive
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Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by Clive » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:35 am

outhouse wrote:

Great find.


To bad these people are al literalist and anything at all not in line with the Koran they know, will by denied.

There is no scholarship in islam that is credible from what im learning. To be in islam requires literalism

Hmm

Early Islam as a late antique religion - Robert Hoyland
https://www.academia.edu/8272594/Early_ ... e_Religion

“Graeco - Arabica I: The Southern Levant.” - Al- Jallad. A. 2015.
https://www.academia.edu/7583140/Graeco ... ern_Levant

Le Coran et son contexte. Remarques sur un ouvrage recent -Guillaume Dye
https://www.academia.edu/4287472/Le_Cor ... %C3%A9cent

Extracted Sources from Hoyland’s “Seeing Islam As Others Saw It”
http://www.christianorigins.com/islamre ... i%EF%BB%BF\\

The History of the Qur'an -Klingschor
http://klingschor.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... ew=sidebar

Ṣaḥīfat Hammām: The Earliest Ḥadīṯ Collection? - Klingschor
http://research-islam.blogspot.com.au/2 ... ction.html

The “Revisionist” History of Islām’s Origins - Klingschor
http://research-islam.blogspot.com.au/2 ... slams.html

The Historical Emergence of Islam - Klingschor
http://research-islam.blogspot.com.au/2 ... islam.html

On the Qur’an and Modern Standard Arabic - Gabriel Said Reynolds
http://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2014/08/04 ... rd-arabic/

Articles by amateur scholar David Reid Ross:
https://sites.google.com/site/zimrielproject/islam/

“The Reign of God Has Come”: Eschatology and Empire in Late Antiquity and Early Islam - Stephen Shoemaker
http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com ... 5-12341312

The religion of the qur'anic pagans: God and the lesser deities - Patricia Crone
https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Arti ... eities.pdf

How did the quranic pagans make a living? - Patricia Crone
https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Arti ... lihood.pdf

The Book of Watchers in the Qur'an - Patricia Crone
https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Arti ... s_2013.pdf

The Quran and the apostles of Jesus - Gabriel Said Reynolds
http://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_file ... 0final.pdf
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"

outhouse
Posts: 3573
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by outhouse » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:56 am

Clive wrote:
Hmm
Your taking me a bit out of context.

I stated in Islam.

Your first link was what looked to be American scholarship on islam, not islam.


maybe I should have been more clear, not a credible scholar in the world uses the koran for historical study in Israelite history or jesus. But my point still stands. Islam avoided scholarship because it is viewed as an attack on their whole religion and denied to the point of murder and extreme violence.

Clive
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by Clive » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:31 pm

The connections between formative Islam and late antique Judaism and Christianity have long deserved the attention of scholars of Islamic origins. Since the 19th century Muhammad’s early Christian background, on the one hand, his complex attitude – and that of his immediate followers – towards both Jews and Christians, on the other hand, and finally the presence of Jewish and Christian religious motifs in the Quranic text and in the Hadith corpus have been widely studied in the West.

Yet from the 1970s onwards, a seemingly major shift has taken place in the study of Islam's origins. Whereas the grand narratives of Islamic origins traditionally contained in the earliest Muslim writings have been usually taken to describe with some accuracy the hypothetical emergence of Islam in mid-7th-century Arabia, they are nowadays increasingly regarded as too late and ideologically biased – in short, as too eulogical – to provide a reliable picture of Islamic origins. Accordingly, new timeframes going from the late 7th to the mid-8th century (i.e. from the Marwanids to the Abbasids) and alternative Syro-Palestinian and Mesopotamian spatial locations are currently being explored.

On the other hand a renewed attention is also being paid to the once very plausible pre-canonical redactional and editorial stages of the Qur'an, a book whose core many contemporary scholars agree to be a kind of “palimpsest” originally formed by different, independent writings in which encrypted passages from the OT Pseudepigrapha, the NT Apocrypha and other writings of Jewish, Christian and Manichaean provenance may be found, and whose liturgical and/or homiletical function contrasts, notwithstanding the number of juridical verses contained in the Quranic text, with the overall juridical purposes set forth and projected onto it by the later established Muslim tradition.

Likewise the earliest Islamic community is presently regarded by many scholars as a somewhat undetermined monotheistic group that evolved from an original Jewish-Christian milieu into a distinct Muslim group perhaps much later than commonly assumed and in a rather unclear way, either within or tolerated by the new Arab polity in the Fertile Crescent or outside and initially opposed to it.

Finally the biography of Muhammad, the founding figure of Islam, has also been challenged in recent times due to the paucity and, once more, the late date and the apparently literary nature of the earliest biographical accounts at our disposal. In sum three major trends of thought define today the field of early Islamic studies: (a) the traditional Islamic view, which many non-Muslim scholars still uphold as well; (b) a number of revisionist views which have contributed to reshape afresh the contents, boundaries and themes of the field itself by reframing the methodological and hermeneutical categories required in the academic study of Islamic origins; and (c) several still conservative but at the same time more cautious views that stand half way between the traditional point of view and the revisionist views.

Surveying the history of these three different approaches to the manner in which Islam emerged, the role played by Muhammad and the nature of the Qur'an should provide a comprehensive overview of the significance of this particular field of research for late-antique religious studies, both Jewish and Christian.
http://www.4enoch.org/wiki3/index.php?t ... ic_Studies
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"

outhouse
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Quran Discovered From Near Time of Muhammad

Post by outhouse » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:05 pm

Maybe you do not understand what im even saying here,,,, as you have yet to address a single thing I have stated in context.


Are you stating members of islam or not literalist?????????

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