useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Discussion about the Quran, hadith, the history of Islam, etc.
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JPCusickSr
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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by JPCusickSr » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:44 am

outhouse wrote: Neither of those books are credible for judging anyone or anything. Its why none of it is used in law other then laying a hand on so many can continue lying.
My finding is that most people are just mistaken or deceived or misguided or sinful, but very few are truly lying.

Hypocrisy is far more widespread than are lies. And yes hypocrisy surely looks like lies but technically it is not.

To lie about such things is so extremely self destructive and self debilitating, because in the end any lie is just lying to thy self.

The old scriptures give us guidance and principles, to help us to make our judgements true and accurate, or as best as we can.
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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by outhouse » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:19 am

JPCusickSr wrote:
The old scriptures give us guidance and principles, to help us to make our judgements true and accurate, or as best as we can.

The old scriptures are fictional myths based on pseudohistory, because the people were beat down so many times and rebuilt by multiple cultures moving to a center hub of travel with only Semitic language that bound them. They had to create a fictional theological history because reality was lost.

Yes the theology has morals taught in every way imaginable, in rhetorical prose in a fictional historical backdrop.

Factually no moses existed, no abaraham, no exodus, no noah. The people factually polytheistic until Hellenization a little before Jesus was born. Their origins factually Canaanite for the most part when the bronze age collapsed and the Semitic people were displaced and settled in the highlands of Israel, with other Semitic peoples displaced.

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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by outhouse » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:21 am

JPCusickSr wrote: to make our judgements true and accurate, or as best as we can.

Then why not learn about the text properly???? why not get an academic education if you place so much value on the text?

If you value the peoples cultures, why remain ignorant to their real lives ?

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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by JPCusickSr » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:56 am

outhouse wrote:The old scriptures are fictional myths based on pseudohistory, because the people were beat down so many times and rebuilt by multiple cultures moving to a center hub of travel with only Semitic language that bound them. They had to create a fictional theological history because reality was lost.

Yes the theology has morals taught in every way imaginable, in rhetorical prose in a fictional historical backdrop.

Factually no moses existed, no abaraham, no exodus, no noah. The people factually polytheistic until Hellenization a little before Jesus was born. Their origins factually Canaanite for the most part when the bronze age collapsed and the Semitic people were displaced and settled in the highlands of Israel, with other Semitic peoples displaced.
Obviously you have a hostile and negative perspective, and it shuts your self out and away.

I view all the old scriptures as from our forefathers, and as such they deserve our respect even when they are misguided or wrong.
outhouse wrote: Then why not learn about the text properly???? why not get an academic education if you place so much value on the text?
I do not see how you can jump to the conclusion that I do not.

I have done a huge amount of realistic research into the old text and into the history and so much more.

I concede that I can be fallible, but I do not yet see you giving any proper interpretation of any text.

Did you get some "academic education" which formed your claims? and your beliefs?
outhouse wrote: If you value the peoples cultures, why remain ignorant to their real lives ?
I said this to you in another thread but I am happy to repeat it here = That I do not value human culture and I see it as mostly uninteresting and boring.

I do suspect that you (as like so many people) put way too much emphasis on people and on what people say and what they do as if their culture has some value - I reject that as an insane and nearly worthless value.
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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by outhouse » Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:24 pm

JPCusickSr wrote:I view all the old scriptures as from our forefathers,.
well context is key to that statement and as is, left open for wiggle room in guessing.

I guess I need to wrangle you down to exacts here.

Do you attribute authorship to moses?

Do you think there was a global flood?

Do you think there was an exodus from Egypt?

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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by JPCusickSr » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:33 pm

outhouse wrote: Do you attribute authorship to moses?
I do not - but I do not care if others say Moses, and yet I too will say Moses just because it does not make any difference.

If the first books were written by one person named George or Jack or Susan then the name of Moses makes no difference.

I like (or prefer) the authors being given the names of J, E, P, D,, so if the J or E had a real name of Moses (Hebrew = מֹשֶׁה ) then any name is just not relevant to anything of importance.

I do accept the evidence that there were at least those four (4) authors of JEPD, and there is an interesting theory that the original book of the Bible - the J Source - was written by a woman because it so often gives a female perspective. ~ Link = The Book of J.
outhouse wrote: Do you think there was a global flood?
I do not - but I do not care if others say there was a flood.

Scholars say that there might have been a small localized flood which the story exaggerates = but it does not make any difference.

Some fools think that they found Noah's Ark on the side of a mountain in Turkey, but who cares? not I.

What I do find interesting in the story of the flood and Noah's Ark is that it can be applied to prophesy for the end times, as in the waters is a metaphor for people flooding the entire earth, see Rev 17:15, along with Matthew 24:37-39 = "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".
outhouse wrote: Do you think there was an exodus from Egypt?
That is possible, but if such an event did happen then it was smaller and far less dramatic then the movie with Charlton Heston.

Otherwise that Bible story does have lots of spiritual food for those who can recognize it.

The Qur'an uses those stories to give inspiration too.
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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by outhouse » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:47 pm

JPCusickSr wrote:The Qur'an uses those stories to give inspiration too.
In this case "uses" means plagiarized.
I do accept the evidence that there were at least those four (4) authors of JEPD
That's sort of the old thinking, but I'm glad your along those lines of thought for the different redaction time period phases.
Scholars say that there might have been a small localized flood which the story exaggerates = but it does not make any difference.
The current academic status is that a series of floods on the Euphrates started the Mesopotamian mythology the Israelites plagiarized while in exile.

I think it was the attested flood of 2900 BC on the Euphrates that devastated Ur, because soon after we have legends of king Ziusudra going down the flooded river on a barge.
but if such an event did happen then it was smaller and far less dramatic
Unknown if it did in small parts. I go with Dever in leaving it open BUT only as a memory of transjordan Semites going in and out of Egypt fur8ing good and bad times.

Reality dictates complete fiction to sell Yahweh as the one god to the polytheistic people after the return from exile, by developing the theology with a pseudohistorical backdrop.

Israelites were proto Israelites and they were displaced Canaanites for the most part, to the point of factual.


So the biblical text historically does not come from any forefathers as even Abraham is pure fiction with no historicity at all.


And islam was not inspired by god, or a god would not have to only offer copied myth and fiction

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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by JPCusickSr » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:08 pm

outhouse wrote: In this case "uses" means plagiarized.
That is your definition, not mine.

The stories are free for anyone to use.
outhouse wrote:... the Mesopotamian mythology the Israelites plagiarized while in exile.
I hear that argument in other places and I see no reason to dismiss the Babylonian influence any more than the Egyptian influence to the Old (the elder) Testament.

The parts of the Bible from Babylon ( Mesopotamia ) can still have claim to truth or inspiration, just as the Egyptian commandments are still valid in the Bible.

You throw around the word "plagiarized" as if that is a commandment of THOU SHALT NOT plagiarize, and there is no such commandment, and certainly not when applied to God inspiring different people into the same message(s).
outhouse wrote: Reality dictates complete fiction to sell Yahweh as the one god to the polytheistic people after the return from exile, by developing the theology with a pseudohistorical backdrop.
Reality dictates that - no - it does not.

The name Yahweh means = male creator = as in Father, and that is why Jesus kept saying "Father" because it was the meaning of Yahweh.

That is a Theological name fitting to all of humanity throughout time memorial, and the title of "Father" or Father-God does not need any historical backdrop.
outhouse wrote: So the biblical text historically does not come from any forefathers as even Abraham is pure fiction with no historicity at all.
When I said forefathers then I did not mean any specific forefather.

The JEPD sources are forefathers too, the early Christians and Muslims are forefathers, and the name Abraham is just a name.

Even the unknown authors fit under the category of forefathers.
outhouse wrote: And islam was not inspired by god, or a god would not have to only offer copied myth and fiction
The saying is that the Qur'an was inspired by God.

The religion of Islam came later.

And the Qur'an has far more important stuff in it then the unimportant references to the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.
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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by outhouse » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:07 am

JPCusickSr wrote: The stories are free for anyone to use.

.

Non sequitur.

Its getting all religions to recognize real history that is the problem here.

Judaism plagiarized Canaanite and Mesopotamian religions

Christians plagiarized Judaism and absorbed Hellenistic mythical influences over time.

Islam plagiarized it all

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Re: useful information about Islamic manuscripts

Post by outhouse » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:10 am

JPCusickSr wrote:I hear that argument in other places and I see no reason to dismiss the Babylonian influence any more than the Egyptian influence to the Old (the elder) Testament.

The parts of the Bible from Babylon ( Mesopotamia ) can still have claim to truth or inspiration, just as the Egyptian commandments are still valid in the Bible.

.

There really is no Egyptian connection here at all.

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