Giuseppe wrote: ↑
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:04 am
For the simple reason that Marcion was a de-ethnicizer. Paul had to cease to be Jew to become a gentile just as Marcion from Sinope. By adoring a gentile
God, the Unknown Father of the Jesus preached by Marcion.
That makes even less sense and is antithetical to Paul's own writings. He is clearly a Jewish proponent who invokes Jewish themes and history. He calls Jesus the Heavenly Adam for cryin out loud!
The Unknown God isn't a gentile god. It was the higher god above YHWH, but not known to gentiles. Nor was it "unknown" in the stricter sense, as it was the god above YHWH, the god of Genesis
The consensus is with me about this view of the relation between Paul and Marcion. Ask Ben, for example, about this point.
What do you care about consensus when the consensus in academia is that Jesus was historical?
I've never seen Ben make that point so I'll withhold my judgement on that. Be that as it may, even if so then I would disagree with him on that matter.
You see, Giuseppe? You can disagree with someone and not think that they are being intellectually dishonest. But your dogmatic approach to, for lack of a batter word, fringe theories, makes you utterly contemptible to honest study.
You believe that that judaizer is a Genius. I think and believe that he (in addition to be not very polite) is only a modern judaizer, an apologist who is visibly embarrassed in seeing that a Marcion hated the tribal god of the Jews. But since Marcion is the hero of modern scholarship, then Marcion has to be judaized. Absurd.
Again that is not an argument. You argue as if your ideas are axiomatic and 100% confirmed, and not solely just your own ideas.
Marcion/Paul utilizes Jewish terms, history, texts, and ideas. So it would stand to reason that they are themselves heavily Jewish.
Marcion isn't the hero of modern scholarship. That just proved to me that you know very little about scholarship and think that the few books you read represent the whole circumference of academia. Marcion is still an obscure figure in New Testament studies and the idea that he influenced modern Christianity in any significant way is still rejected by the mainstream.
Marcion has become of sorts a hero on this forum, but not to me. If anything I think he's been overblown.
Bravo. Finally you start to understand me. The Pillars adored YHWH. Paul adored YHWH. The author of Revelation adored YHWH.
A Gospel Jesus was still not invented, in whiletime. And the Christians were still all Jews.
No one understands you because you speak in vagueness and subterfuge.
Paul didn't adore YHWH. If he did then why did he deem his Law a curse? No. Paul, like Marcion, preached the god above YHWH.
Then the gentile Gnostics became Christian Gnostics and started to do what any Gnostic did: to de-ethnicize local heroes and deities.
This goes along with your complete lack of understanding what gnosticism is. Gnosticism doesn't mean anything. It was a term used as a pejorative by the Orthodoxy against anyone and everyone else. Nor was there one form of gnosticism. Mithraism was gnostic. Judaism was gnostic. Hinduism was gnostic. And even in Christianity there wasn't one version of gnosticism.
The gnostics were completely ethnocentric. That's why the vilified local gods below their higher god.
A gentile gnostic sect invented the Gospel Jesus (something of very similar to proto-John).
The Jewish-Christians heard about that strange story about apparently their same hero, but they were scandalized by the fact that this hero was enemy of the Law and of the creator. Hence they judaized the first gospel by writing the Gospel of the Hebrews, Mark, Matthew, Luke, etc.
Then why did the supposed original author, Paul, add Judaism into his own texts and beliefs?
You just refuse to see Christianity as a Jewish sub-sect don't you? Even though all Christians in one way or another incorporated Judaism into their system.
No, it wasn't incorporated. It was an outgrowth of Judaism from the start.
Marcion was only a late comer. He could even have corrupted Luke, by accepting Barabbas velim nolim as corollary.
If anything Marcion was one of the first on the scene. He didn't corrupt Luke
I'm actually shocked that you think that.
The Barabbas episode is the smoking gun that proves that even our dear gentilizer Mark was really a judaizer, insofar he despises the gnostic alien Son of Father under the form of a bastard criminal named Bar-Abbas (lit.: the "son of an unknown father").
Despite Barabbas not being applicable to Marcion's idea of Christ?
Paul's/Marcion's "unknown" god was only unknown to the later church because they didn't understand Judaism or realize that Marcion was fully Jewish. Jews for the last two and a half centuries before then had understood that there were two powers in their religion.
Do you understand now the importance of the Barabbas episode? What I have written above is simply the mere conclusion inferred by a such great finding of Couchoud/Stahl (note that Stahl was historicist).
Yeah. I do understand the importance of Barabbas. As an allegory for the transmigration Christ from one host to another, with the previous host being condemned to die, and the new one being released.