Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:00 am

It should be evident that I post here very rarely to discuss with someone, but only to fix in an useful database some ideas that I may or not continue to develop in the future to see where they lead me.

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Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:57 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:00 am
no, no, it's all wrong, your view of things. Please read the 2014 book On the historicity of Jesus of Richard Carrier and only after come to talk with me, here. Where is ----------- when even the his language is music in comparison to the mere apologetic rumor of Nusraddin?

It should be evident that I post here very rarely to discuss with someone, but only to fix in an useful database some ideas that I may or not continue to develop in the future to see where they lead me.[/i]
Here you go folks. Giuseppe admitting he has no interest in discourse, and is only interested in points that concur with his presuppositions.

Get this joker out of here.
Niente è ingannevole o depravato come Guiseppe.

Giuseppe
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:18 am

:confusedsmiley: Excuse me, only for a moment I recognize that I am wrong.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Nasruddin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:37 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:54 am
Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:11 am

It was not just the Gospel, but John himself and other disciples of Jesus who told the elders that Jesus was in his 40s when he died. It is very unlikely that these people, who were contemporaries of Jesus, confused him with Theudas. Extra-Biblical material already tells us that John the Baptist did not live into the reign of Claudius
no, no, it's all wrong, your view of things. Please read the 2014 book On the historicity of Jesus of Richard Carrier and only after come to talk with me, here. Where is Joseph D. L. when even the his language is music in comparison to the mere apologetic rumor of Nusraddin?
I quoted back to you the source you quoted yourself. If that source (from which your thread hangs) is now to be discarded, then your thread is a no-starter.

I am sure Irenaeus never read Richard Carrier. Iranaeus was born c.130 AD and wrote Against Heresies c.180 AD, and says that his sources were the elders who knew the apostles who were companions of Jesus. He was discussing how long Jesus' ministry was, and arguing from passages in the Gospels that Jesus was not quite 30 when he started preaching, but was not yet 50 when he died. He concludes that Jesus was in his 40s, claiming that this information also had an oral tradition.
Last edited by Nasruddin on Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Giuseppe
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:44 am

Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:37 am
Iranaeus was born c.130 AD and wrote Against Heresies c.180 AD, and says that his sources were the elders who knew the apostles who were companions of Jesus.
Valentinus said that Theudas reported him the esoteric doctrine of Paul. Theudas has a name. The elders of Irenaeus were without name. Why should I follow Irenaeus rather than Valentinus? Or viceversa?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Nasruddin
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Nasruddin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:09 am

Irenaeus himself met Polycarp, who was a companion of John, the apostle of Jesus.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:46 pm

Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:37 am
[Irenaeus ]claiming that this information also had an oral tradition.
Which could be an attempt to shore-up the 'information' as having historical veracity ...

Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:09 am
Irenaeus himself met Polycarp, who was a companion of John, the apostle of Jesus.
This begs the question: when was the John that Polycarp mentions an apostle of Jesus? In Polycarp's middle to latter life?

Nasruddin
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by Nasruddin » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:08 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:46 pm
Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:37 am
[Irenaeus ]claiming that this information also had an oral tradition.
Which could be an attempt to shore-up the 'information' as having historical veracity ...

Nasruddin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:09 am
Irenaeus himself met Polycarp, who was a companion of John, the apostle of Jesus.
This begs the question: when was the John that Polycarp mentions an apostle of Jesus? In Polycarp's middle to latter life?
But Iraneaus did not claim Polycarp as his source for this particular information.

John came before Polycarp. I am unclear why you think he would have been in Polycarp's middle or later life.

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DCHindley
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by DCHindley » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:56 pm

Nasruddin,

I think he is making a distinction between a first generation apostle appointed by Jesus, or a disciple from his immediate circle, named John, and John the Elder from the 2nd generation of Jesus people.

DCH

perseusomega9
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Re: Did Irenaeus identify John with Jesus without knowing it?

Post by perseusomega9 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:01 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:00 am
but only to fix in an useful database some ideas
Could you refrain from doing it here, or at least only post when it's something useful. At the very least limit your inane ramblings to one new thread a week

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