Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:34 am

Thank you Andrew. You're the best. From Scott Brown

Smith lists Jerome on p. 403 in his index of ancient works discussed. He includes De Viris Illustribus 8 (spelled as inlustribus), and gives p. 280 as the place where he discusses it (4th line from the bottom). Again, he spells it inlustribus there; he doesn’t discuss its contents except to suggest that it depends on Eusebius and Papias. I don’t recall Smith discussing this work by Jerome, but it may not be the kind of thing that I would remember. What he wrote about this book in CA probably depends on other scholars.

P. 27 also mentions this work (same spelling, not indexed). Smith quotes some Latin but doesn’t translate it. Smith’s other references to Jerome occur on pp. 17, 79 (last line), 269, 287 (top), and 340 (on Carpocrates).

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:58 pm

Can anyone explain to me why translators ignore that vitae is plural in this sentence:

assumpto itaque evangelio quod ipse confecerat, perrexit Aegyptum et primus Alexandriae Christum annucians constituit ecclesiam tanta doctrina et vitae continentia ut omnes sectatores Christi ad exemplum sui cogere

=

He went with his gospel into Egypt , and there constituted a church ; that he was so remarkable in the abstemiousness of his life , that he obliged all his converts to follow his example.

I see Ben translated it as follows:

And so, the gospel which he himself put together having been taken up, he went forth to Egypt and, first announcing Christ in Alexandria, he constituted a church with such teaching and continence of life that it compels all followers of Christ to its example.

I can see that make more sense. But I wonder:

assumpto (taking) itaque (therefore) evangelio (gospel) quod ipse (the same) confecerat (completed) , perrexit (went) Aegyptum (Egypt) et primus (and first) Alexandriae (Alexandria) Christum annucians (Christ announced) constituit ecclesiam (constituted a church) tanta doctrina (such teaching) et vitae continentia (and continence of life) ut omnes sectatores Christi (all followers of Christ) ad exemplum (to the authorized copy) sui cogere (it compels)
Last edited by Secret Alias on Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:16 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:58 pm
Can anyone explain to me why translators ignore that vitae is plural in this sentence:

assumpto itaque evangelio quod ipse confecerat, perrexit Aegyptum et primus Alexandriae Christum annucians constituit ecclesiam tanta doctrina et vitae continentia ut omnes sectatores Christi ad exemplum sui cogere

=

He went with his gospel into Egypt , and there constituted a church ; that he was so remarkable in the abstemiousness of his life , that he obliged all his converts to follow his example.

I see Ben translated it as follows:

And so, the gospel which he himself put together having been taken up, he went forth to Egypt and, first announcing Christ in Alexandria, he constituted a church with such teaching and continence of life that it compels all followers of Christ to its example.

I can see that make more sense. But I wonder:
It is not plural; it is the genitive singular, and it goes with continentia as a so called "genitive of respect" (continence with respect to life) or what have you. (Both the genitive singular and the dative singular are identical in form to the nominative plural in the first declension.)

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:19 pm

Yes I figured that out I think the baby way:

assumpto (taking) itaque (therefore) evangelio (gospel) quod ipse (the same) confecerat (completed) , perrexit (went) Aegyptum (Egypt) et primus (and first) Alexandriae (Alexandria) Christum annucians (Christ announced) constituit ecclesiam (constituted a church) tanta doctrina (such teaching) et vitae continentia (and continence of life) ut omnes sectatores Christi (all followers of Christ) ad exemplum (to the authorized copy) sui cogere (it compels)

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:21 pm

Posts crossed.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:29 pm

Why do translators make Mark the subject of the sentence, the 'exemplum' which compels the converts? It seems to me (I am perhaps biased) that the gospel is the subject of the sentence. The gospel (mentioned at the beginning of the section) is brought to Egypt and from it (rather than Mark) the doctrines and continence of life which establish the community come from it (and Peter). Does Jerome really go that far away from Eusebius that Mark makes himself the authority by which the community is established?

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:46 pm

Secret Alias wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:29 pm
Why do translators make Mark the subject of the sentence, the 'exemplum' which compels the converts?
Because evangelio is not in the nominative. It is in the ablative as part of the ablative absolute, assumpto itaque evangelio. It would be pretty amazing (and barbaric) for the subject of the sentence to be understood to be the same exact noun as what is in an ablative absolute. I have never seen such a thing in Latin, which would be completely unnecessary anyway, since one could so much more easily just put the participle in the nominative to agree with the subject.

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:48 pm

Well that about settles that. Thanks

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:01 pm

So:

Mark, disciple and interpreter of Peter according to what he heard Peter referring to, when requested by the brethren in Rome wrote a short gospel, which, when Peter heard, he approved and published on his authority reading by the churches.

The bit from 1 Peter:

assumpto (taking) itaque (therefore) evangelio (gospel) quod ipse (the same) confecerat (completed) , perrexit (went) Aegyptum (Egypt) et primus (and first) Alexandriae (Alexandria) Christum annucians (Christ announced) constituit ecclesiam (constituted a church) tanta doctrina (such teaching) et vitae continentia (and continence of life) ut omnes sectatores Christi (all followers of Christ) ad exemplum (his example) sui cogere (it compels)

So the story is the gospel is written in Rome, Mark brings the gospel he wrote from Peter's dictation to Alexandria AND everyone heard his doctrine and saw his celibate example and stopped having sex. That's about the summary.

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Re: Secret Mark is Already Known to Jerome

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:28 am

What about this translation

assumpto (taking) itaque (therefore) evangelio (gospel) quod ipse (the same) confecerat (completed) , perrexit (went) Aegyptum (Egypt) et primus (and first) Alexandriae (Alexandria) Christum annucians (Christ announced) constituit ecclesiam (constituted a church) tanta doctrina (such teaching) et vitae continentia (and continence of life) ut omnes sectatores Christi (all followers of Christ) ad exemplum sui (by his copy) cogere (compels)

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