The Origins of Christianity

[John2]

And this webpage discusses Rabbi ben Zakkai and Vespasian.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... equest.htm

He devised a plan that would allow him to leave Jerusalem, despite the Zealots' blockade. He feigned death so that he could be carried out of the city. His disciples carried the coffin out of the city's walls, and Rabbi Yochanan proceeded directly to Vespasian's tent. He entered the tent and addressed Vespasian as "Your Majesty."

"You are deserving of death on two accounts," said Vespasian. "First of all, I am not the emperor, only his general. Secondly, if I am indeed emperor, why did you not come to me until now?"

Rabbi Yochanan answered: "You are an emperor, because otherwise the Holy Temple would not be delivered in your hands.… And as for your second question, the reckless Zealots would not allow me to leave the city."

While they were speaking, a messenger came and told Vespasian that Nero was dead and he had been appointed the new Roman emperor. Vespasian was so impressed with Rabbi Yochanan's wisdom that he offered to grant Rabbi Yochanan anything he wanted as a reward. Rabbi Yochanan made three requests. The primary request was that Vespasian spare Yavne – which would become the new home of the Sanhedrin – and its Torah sages.

Rabbi Yochanan thus ensured the continuation of Jewish scholarship after the fall of Jerusalem.

[John2]

And here's something more recent that discusses the idea that the Hasideans split into two factions.

https://books.google.com/books?id=P9sYI ... es&f=false

[John2]

To get back to the Damascus Document, in addition to the other similarities that have been pointed out (expectation of a singular Messiah, the Way, the New Covenant in a place called Damascus, the Last Days, etc.), it quotes several OT verses in a messianic context that are also mentioned in the NT. One of them is catching my eye at the moment, one I hadn't noticed before, Ezek. 9:4 (in tandem with another one that I have, Zech. 13:7), in col. 7 of manuscript B of CD.

... when God visits the earth, when there shall come to pass the word, which is written by the hand of Zechariah the Prophet, "Awake, O sword, against My shepherd and against the man who is my companion," says God, "Strike the shepherd and scatter the flock, and I will stretch my hand over the Little Ones [Zech. 13:7]." The "keepers of him" are the Meek of the flock. These shall escape in the Era of the Visitation, but the rest shall be given over to the sword with the coming of the Messiah of Aaron and Israel, as it was in the Era of the First Visitation, concerning which (God) said by the hand of Ezekiel, "To put a mark on the foreheads of those who cry and weep" [Ezek. 9:4].

All these verses are cited or alluded to in the NT. Zech. 13:7 is cited in Mark 14:27 ("Then Jesus said to them, 'You will all fall away, for it is written: 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered'") and Mt. 26:31, and references to "the little ones" are in Mk. 9:42, Mt. 10:42 and 18:6-10, and Lk. 17:2, and, the one I hadn't noticed before, Ezek. 9:4 is alluded to in several verses of Revelation (http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/9-4.htm).

[eedipus]

MrMacSon posed the question. What does the Eleusinian Mysteries have to do with Christianity?
Yes it does seem a stretch but the connections are there if you dig and look for them. As Greek
culture heavily influenced the Roman Republic, it had a corresponding effect on the development
of Jewish thought. Let us return to the heart of the matter.

What is the essential feature that gives Christianity the significance that is essential to it?
It is the Resurrection. Without it Christianity would collapse like a house of cards.
Religions are not only concerned with how we should lead our lives but how we should
deal with death. It has always been so. It is my contention that embedded in our minds is
the real reason why religions exert the power they have over us. Resurrection really means a renewal
of humanity not individual renewal. The Jesus story was fashioned from the dying and rising god man theme.
The writer of the story knew that placing the story in the past meant that it could be taken literally
but he reasoned that his readers would understand that he was writing metaphorically because the story
included parables and this dying and rising god man theme he was speaking of was part
of the overall dying and rising leitmotif which is everywhere evidenced in nature.
Tragically, the confusion and emotional upheaval of the time was not conducive to a rational approach
and a literal approach to what was said and written took hold.
Furthermore the majority of his peers rejected his views on how he believed the mind worked.
They thought the result of his thinking was wrong and they pursued their own path of a Judaism without the Temple.
The result was that Christianity became fragmented within its few intellectual proponents and those that favored
the literal course to the original gospel. The course was then set for a melange of ideas that competed with each other
until the rise of science forced Christianity to reexamine itself. For the contemporary apologist the question is –
can the Christian faith make sense?
If I may hypothesize, the nature of insight and thinking should in time be understood through technological advancement,
by tracing back word associations to their neurological connections in the visual cortex.

The Eleusinian Mysteries, in the story of Persephone, was the Greek attempt to mirror the dying
and rising of humanity with the winter and spring of the seasons. They saw themselves being born
again, being renewed. As it happened to other living things so it would happen to them.
Christ was another model of the dying and rising leitmotif.

Christianity has to evolve; to make manifest the meaning of life and death, within the culture of
its time. Science will become its friend not its foe. The answer will be found in the exploration of
the human mind.

Christ is not fundamentally a theological problem, it is a psychological one.

Dennis Sutherland.

[neilgodfrey]

MrMacSon posed the question. What does the Eleusinian Mysteries have to do with Christianity?
Yes it does seem a stretch but the connections are there if you dig and look for them. As Greek
culture heavily influenced the Roman Republic, it had a corresponding effect on the development
of Jewish thought. Let us return to the heart of the matter.

What is the essential feature that gives Christianity the significance that is essential to it?
It is the Resurrection. Without it Christianity would collapse like a house of cards.
Religions are not only concerned with how we should lead our lives but how we should
deal with death. . . . .

Kerenyi's old monograph on the Eleusinian mystery and the goddess Demeter and the Eleusis cult fills out more of the picture of the sorts of religious practices that were part of the early Christian world. One interesting detail was the central role of the "beatific vision" -- seeing a vision of the deity -- which was the mechanism that gave salvation to the devotee. We don't know the details, though. Presumably some sort of set up in a darkened room.

I think with Christianity something more than the resurrection is key. Paul says he wanted to know nothing but Christ crucified -- not resurrected. The first gospel has chapters on the death but skips over the resurrection. There's something more than just escape from death that's the central interest here, I think.

[MrMacSon]

Kerenyi's old monograph on the Eleusinian mystery and the goddess Demeter and the Eleusis cult fills out more of the picture of the sorts of religious practices that were part of the early Christian world.

... the sorts of religious practices that were part of the early Christian world period that early Christianity developed in (?)

One interesting detail was the central role of the "beatific vision" -- seeing a vision of the deity -- which was the mechanism that gave salvation to the devotee. We don't know the details, though. Presumably some sort of set up in a darkened room.

I think with Christianity something more than the resurrection is key. Paul says he wanted to know nothing but Christ crucified -- not resurrected. The first gospel has chapters on the death, but skips over the resurrection. There's something more than just escape from death that's the central interest here, I think.

Visions via dreams were common for many centuries up to the 3rd C AD/CE.

See

• http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1554 ,
  
  • http://www.academia.edu/3100958/Ancient ... out_Dreams
    
    http://dreamstudies.org/2011/12/04/5-as ... -dreaming/

• Robert Karl Gnuse. Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis

• the start of the Chapters in Zechariah

• 4 Ezra -
  

  "After seven days I dreamed a dream in the night; and behold, a wind arose from the sea and stirred up all its waves. And I looked, and behold, this wind made something like the figure of a man come up out of the heart of the sea. And I looked, and behold, that man flew with the clouds of heaven; and wherever he turned his face to look, everything under his gaze trembled, and whenever his voice issued from his mouth, all who heard his voice melted as wax melts when it feels the fire.
  
  "After this I looked, and behold, an innumerable multitude of men were gathered together from the four winds of heaven to make war against the man who came up out of the sea. And I looked, and behold, he carved out for himself a great mountain, and flew up upon it. And I tried to see the region or place from which the mountain was carved, but I could not.
  

  • .. snip ..>

  Then in great fear I awoke; and I besought the Most High, and said, "From the beginning thou hast shown thy servant these wonders, and hast deemed me worthy to have my prayer heard by thee; now show me also the interpretation of this dream. For as I consider it in my mind, alas for those who will be left in those days! And still more, alas for those who are not left! For those who are not left will be sad, because they understand what is reserved for the last days, but cannot attain it. But alas for those also who are left, and for that very reason! For they shall see great dangers and much distress, as these dreams show. Yet it is better to come into these things, though incurring peril, than to pass from the world like a cloud, and not to see what shall happen in the last days."

I wonder if resurrection was a vision, too (even a promoted vision). It seems likely "there is something more than just escape from death that's the central interest" there.

[neilgodfrey]

It would be helpful if you provide first names for these scholars and the books that discuss the issue of Jewish eschatology.

A perfect place to start is with Richard Horsley's 2012 book, The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel: Moving Beyond a Diversionary Debate.

It's been on my "to-read" shelf for some months and I only caught up with it a couple of hours ago. It addresses the very points I have been arguing here. He even begins with a discussion of the way biblical studies scholarship is so fragmented into specialised areas that many historical Jesus and gospels scholars have simply remained unaware of the advances that have been made in the studies of Jewish apocalyptic literature in the last several decades. Horsley challenges the assumption that there was any sort of Jewish expectation of an end of the world etc and points out that scholars have assumed this on the basis of a mistakenly literal reading of apocalyptic texts.

These recent investigations thus raise questions about whether and how these [Jewish apocalyptic] texts can be used as sources for attitudes and expectations in Judean and Galilean society more generally at the time of Jesus.

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (p. 40). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

Borg and Crossan as well as Allison include Mark 13: 24-25 (sun darkened, stars falling, etc.) in their citation of “apocalyptic son of man” texts. This has been a key “prooftext” for the “cosmic catastrophe” entailed in “the eschatological judgment.” The scholarly belief that the scenario of apocalyptic eschatology meant the end of the world may have resulted from the overly literal reading of this passage and similar brief passages in only a few other texts. Interpreters have also failed to discern the roots of these images of cosmic disorder in prophetic tradition.

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (p. 41). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

These images are hardly to be taken literally. They are part and parcel of a description of just how terrible it will be when “The Great Holy/ Heavenly One” will come forth from the heavenly throne in judgment on the rebel heavenly “watchers and wicked deeds of humanity” or on “the nations.” These passages, moreover, stand in a long tradition of prophetic oracles that announce “the day of Yahweh,” God’s coming to defeat oppressive rulers or the foreign kings who have conquered his people (e.g., Mic. 1: 2-7; Jer. 25: 30-38; Ezek. 32: 5-8; Joel 2: 10-11, 30-32; 3: 14-15). As suggested by God’s appearance on Sinai (1 Enoch 1: 4), this prophetic portrayal of God’s appearance in judgment was influenced by standard earlier portrayals of Yahweh’s appearance with armies of holy ones from Sinai to deliver blessings on Israel and/ or defeat enemy forces, as in the Blessing of Moses (see esp. Deut. 33: 1-2, 27, 29) and the Song of Deborah (Judg. 5: 4-5).

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (pp. 41-42). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

The point of the “earthshaking” images, in heightened metaphoric and hyperbolic language, was to symbolize how awesome would be the appearance of God in judgment. The whole tradition of such oracles was sharply political, pronouncing condemnation of oppressive domestic or foreign rulers and the people’s deliverance from such rulers. In the oracle against imperial Babylon attributed to Isaiah, the traditional images of God’s appearance in judgment are interspersed with a vivid portrayal of how devastating imperial warfare can be against the conquered populations (13: 1-5, 6-10, 11-12, 13, 14-22). Yahweh coming in judgment against Babylon will “make the earth a desolation” — in attacks by the armies of the Medes (13: 9, 17-18). 7 The prophetic oracle in Isaiah 24: 17-23 even includes the “host of heaven” along with “the kings of the earth” in the divine punishment, a step toward the focus on judgment against the rebel watchers in the rest of the Book of Watchers. The language of mountains crumbling, earth shaking, and disarray in the heavenly bodies was not distinctively apocalyptic, but a prophetic tradition of God’s judgment on oppressive imperial rulers, and it was not intended to be taken literally. In the other second-temple apocalyptic texts, there is nothing to suggest the end/ destruction of the world. In fact, several texts have statements to the contrary,

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (p. 42). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

[neilgodfrey]

Further . . .

The standard scholarly generalization that the imagery in Mark 13: 24-25, preceding 13: 26, refers to the end of the world is rooted in overly literal reading of traditional Israelite prophetic language of theophany (as in Isa. 13: 9-13), of the appearance of God in judgment on Israel’s enemies, that was continued in brief passages in only a few Judean “apocalyptic” texts (such as Testament of Moses 10).

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (p. 161). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

Jesus’ speech in Mark 13 evidently addresses the continuing historical situation in Judea in the decades following Jesus’ mission.

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (pp. 113-114). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

Jesus’ statement in Mark 13: 1-2 that “not one stone will be left here upon another, all will be thrown down” is usually taken as a prophetic reference to the destruction of the Temple. Witnesses at his trial in Mark say they heard him say, “I will destroy this temple that is made with hands and in three days I will build another, not made with hands” (Mark 14: 58). Passersby at his crucifixion deride him, saying “Aha! You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days . . .” (15: 29). These reports have parallels in other Gospels. The simplest reference is in the Gospel of Thomas 71: “Jesus said: ‘I shall de[ stroy this] house, and no one will be able to build it [again],’” which is close to the “reports” in Acts 6: 13-14 that Stephen had said “that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place.” That Jesus had prophesied destruction (and rebuilding) of the Temple was so deeply embedded in Jesus tradition that (to explain it away) the Gospel of John carefully had Jesus making reference to his body rather than suppress the prophecy (cf. John 2: 19-21). 12

Several modern attempts have been made to explain (away) this prophecy. Some have argued that at Jesus’ trial in Mark the paraphrase of his prophecy is presented as false testimony. Mark’s narrative (“ But even on this point their testimony did not agree,” 14: 59) does not really say that. The assumption at the crucifixion scene is that Jesus had indeed spoken about destroying the Temple. And Mark’s narrative had earlier represented Jesus as declaring that the stones would all “be thrown down.” The witnesses’ testimony is that Jesus himself would destroy the Temple. But if he had been uttering prophecy as the mouthpiece of God in the same way that earlier Israelite prophets had done, and in the same way as in Q/ Luke 13: 34-35, then it was God who was about to destroy the Temple.

The form of the prophecy in Mark 14: 58 and 15: 29 (and in John 2: 19-21) is a double saying, about the destruction and the rebuilding of the Temple. The temple “not made with hands” was taken as a “spiritual” or “heavenly” temple in earlier Christian interpretation. The appearance of “house” in the Gospel of Thomas version, however, suggests another possibility for understanding the prophecy in its double-saying form. “House (of God)” was used in second-temple Judean texts not only for the Temple and for the ruling house but also for the people, and often for the restored people of Israel. Terms such as “house,” “temple,” “body,” and “assembly” could all function as synonyms, usually with reference to a social body (the people). The community at Qumran near the Dead Sea, for example, understood itself as the (true) “temple” (1 QS 5: 5-7; 8: 4-10; 9: 3-6; 4QFlor 1: 1-13). Jesus’ prophecy of destroying and rebuilding the Temple can thus be understood as playing on the double meaning of the term “temple” or (more likely, as in the Gospel of Thomas version) “house.” His prophecy declared that God was destroying the/ God’s “house/ temple made with hands” in Jerusalem but rebuilding the/ God’s “house/ temple not made with hands,” the people of Israel.

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (pp. 142-143). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

The time of sufferings (that appears only) in Daniel 12: 1b, like those in Mark 13: 19, 24, appears to be historical-political, and not a special period or event in the end-of-the-world events. So there does not appear to have been a set or sequence of events that were eschatological in second-temple apocalyptic texts before or at the time of Jesus.

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (p. 49). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

We noted in Chapter 3 that the “sufferings” mentioned in Mark 13: 19, 24a (also) referred to the effects of Roman military attacks or acts of repression and persecution by Roman client rulers, i.e., to historical-political conflict and distress. In both Daniel 12: 1b and Mark 13, on the basis of recent experience, the political repression was expected to become more severe before the people were delivered. In neither case, however, does it seem to refer to a special period of time in an eschatological scenario.

Horsley, Richard (2012-11-09). The Prophet Jesus and the Renewal of Israel (p. 46). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

[neilgodfrey]

Understanding the apocalyptic genre has major implications for the dating of the gospels, their provenance within the Jewish literary traditions, and questions relating to the origins of Christianity itself. I think it adds much weight to Christianity of the proto-orthodox variety beginning in the wake of, and largely as a consequence of, the fall of Jerusalem.

[iskander]

MrMacSon posed the question. What does the Eleusinian Mysteries have to do with Christianity?
Yes it does seem a stretch but the connections are there if you dig and look for them. As Greek
culture heavily influenced the Roman Republic, it had a corresponding effect on the development
of Jewish thought. Let us return to the heart of the matter.

What is the essential feature that gives Christianity the significance that is essential to it?
It is the Resurrection. Without it Christianity would collapse like a house of cards.
Religions are not only concerned with how we should lead our lives but how we should
deal with death. It has always been so. It is my contention that embedded in our minds is
the real reason why religions exert the power they have over us. Resurrection really means a renewal
of humanity not individual renewal. The Jesus story was fashioned from the dying and rising god man theme.
The writer of the story knew that placing the story in the past meant that it could be taken literally
but he reasoned that his readers would understand that he was writing metaphorically because the story
included parables and this dying and rising god man theme he was speaking of was part
of the overall dying and rising leitmotif which is everywhere evidenced in nature.
Tragically, the confusion and emotional upheaval of the time was not conducive to a rational approach
and a literal approach to what was said and written took hold.
Furthermore the majority of his peers rejected his views on how he believed the mind worked.
They thought the result of his thinking was wrong and they pursued their own path of a Judaism without the Temple.
The result was that Christianity became fragmented within its few intellectual proponents and those that favored
the literal course to the original gospel. The course was then set for a melange of ideas that competed with each other
until the rise of science forced Christianity to reexamine itself. For the contemporary apologist the question is –
can the Christian faith make sense?
If I may hypothesize, the nature of insight and thinking should in time be understood through technological advancement,
by tracing back word associations to their neurological connections in the visual cortex.

The Eleusinian Mysteries, in the story of Persephone, was the Greek attempt to mirror the dying
and rising of humanity with the winter and spring of the seasons. They saw themselves being born
again, being renewed. As it happened to other living things so it would happen to them.
Christ was another model of the dying and rising leitmotif.

Christianity has to evolve; to make manifest the meaning of life and death, within the culture of
its time. Science will become its friend not its foe. The answer will be found in the exploration of
the human mind.

Christ is not fundamentally a theological problem, it is a psychological one.

Dennis Sutherland.

What does the Eleusinian Mysteries have to do with Christianity?

Nothing at all. Christianity began as a reaction to the power of the Temple , just as the Reformation began as a reaction to the power of the Church.