"Inside The Veil": Behind The "Secret" Teachings Of Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: "Inside The Veil": Behind The "Secret" Teachings Of Jesu

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:37 am

TS:no, the theme "need to repent" is not present in the Marcan parables, because Mark's
Jesus has encountered resistance (3:6), and has decided to disguise his instruction in
parables (4:10-12), understood only by those who believe.
I do not think the need to repent (in order to be saved) would be offensive for anybody at the times of Jesus. This theme appears many times in the OT and John the Baptist preached that.
Furthermore the Pharisees in Mk 3:6 react only about Jesus' two loose observances of the Sabbath day (Mk 2:23-3:5) which they observe. Nothing to do with "need to repent" or the rest of his message.
Furthermore, if Mark had Jesus using parables about "need to repent", we would expect this theme to appear in these parables. But it does not.
I do not see the parables containing instructions, except for the two last ones (the fig tree & the faithful servant) but these instructions are only for after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. And they are given to only a few of his disciples, with no need of secrecy.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: "Inside The Veil": Behind The "Secret" Teachings Of Jesu

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:04 am

TS:yes, I have heard and read many theories about "the orthodox corruption of Scripture".
The problem I have with them is that there are so many crucial things missing from the
acknowledged epistles of Paul:
*Paul invokes no dominical command to go out and preach to the nations. If Jesus had
given such a command, Paul would have surely used it to support his gentile mission,
but he does not. And if Paul's writings were "corrupted" to a great degree by the centralized
church, I believe we would find such a "command" among his writings.
*Paul never invokes the teachings of Jesus in order to support his own teachings about
setting aside the primacy of the law, how people are justified by faith apart from works
of the law. This also became a central pillar of orthodox Christian theology, and if the
letters of Paul had been extensively tampered with by the later church, I believe we would
also have at least one forged attribution of antinomian teachings made by Paul to the
Christian Lord.
*Atonement theology is also not placed on the lips of Jesus in the acknowledged letters of
Paul. While the cross became the center of Paul's theology, and an undoubted cornerstone
of the later church, we find no reference from Jesus to the atoning significance of his own
death anywhere in the Pauline corpus.
It is the things that are missing, the central planks of the Christian platform, that should
caution us about embracing the notion that the letters of Paul, or the Gospels, were
extensively edited and interpolated by the later church.
First, there was no "centralised church" in the 1st & 2nd century. Interpolations were most likely made by individual copist, either on their own, or under order from their boss, on a item they personally considered important. For this reason, these interpolations were not systematic on every facets of theology or Christology. And when the time would come for others to make new copies, the source manuscript the most complete would be selected, rather than another one with "missing" verses (therefore suspected of deletions), if known. That would explain why, for some interpolations made early, they appear in all the ancient manuscripts we know of, but for other interpolations (such as Mk 16:9-20), they do not show in all these ancient manuscripts.

Second, it was understood Paul knew (well) the heavenly Jesus, through visions and revelations, through the Holy Spirit, through the mind of Christ, etc. (as he said himself in his epistles) but not from the past human Jesus. Paul's gospel did not come from eyewitnesses but from Jesus by revelations (Gal 1:11-12).
So it was not expected Paul would transmit teachings and instructions from the earthly Jesus (especially when Paul had more up-to-date info from above!).
*The heritage of all Israel, the Torah, prohibited adding or subtracting from the laws
(Deut 4:2).
But on other ancient scriptures, that necessarily did not apply. For example, very few scholars think the whole book of Isaiah was written by a same author, especially the second part, which looks like additions, made beyond the life span of Isaiah.
*The Essenes were sworn to pass on their doctrines exactly as they had received them
(Josephus "Judean War" 2.8.7.142)
*The Rabbi Hillel was remembered for declaring that "it is a man's duty to state (a tradition)
in his teacher's words"(Gerhardsson "Memory And Manuscript" p.131).
*Paul warned his congregations:"Nothing beyond what is written.."(1Cor 4:6)
Well, that can be said but not necessarily applied.
Paul, for example, did, with addition, some cut and paste on OT verses (http://historical-jesus.info/19.html), as also did "Mark" (1:2-3). "Luke" & "Matthew" modified, added and deleted on gMark and Q wording, etc.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Tod Stites
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Re: "Inside The Veil": Behind The "Secret" Teachings Of Jesu

Post by Tod Stites » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:20 am

O.K. Bernard,
Thanks for the feedback...

iskander
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Re: "Inside The Veil": Behind The "Secret" Teachings Of Jesu

Post by iskander » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:31 am

To acquire mastery of a subject requires time, effort, quality in both the student and the teacher and more. Jesus trains the trainers and gets the uninterested wondering.Pythagoras is one example of what the student and the uninterested learn and how they do it.Sankara is another.


" The ultimate goal of Advaita is to attain liberation through Self-Knowledge,
In the following pages, we will explore three questions:
1. Who am I? or What is Self-knowledge?
2. How to attain Self-knowledge?
3. How does a Self-realized person act?

How to attain Self-Knowledge?
Four Qualities of a Seeker of Self-knowledge or Truth

Advaita Vedanta lays down four prerequisites or qualities for a seeker after Self-knowledge, as follows:

1. Discrimination—viveka—between the real and the unreal
2. Renunciation—vairagya—of the unreal
3. Six Virtues/Treasures—shatsampatti—of self-control
4. Longing for liberation—mumukshuta

While studying under a spiritual mentor, the qualified student practices a three-fold learning discipline, starting with proper listening (sravana), supported by reflection (manana) and contemplation (nididhyasana). This process leads the student to the experience (anubhuti) of Self-Knowledge in due course of time.
Sri RamanaMaharshi has pointed out that ―there is no difference between God, Guru, and the Self.‖ According to him, ―The master is both ‗within‘ and ‗without.‘ He gives a push from ‗without‘ and exerts a pull from ‗within‘…‖ The real guru resides within us all: ―There is only one master, and that is the Self.‖ (Maharshi’s Gospel, 2003, pp., 26-29)."

Sri Sankara’s Vivekachudamani

Tod Stites
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Re: "Inside The Veil": Behind The "Secret" Teachings Of Jesu

Post by Tod Stites » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:34 am

I love it!

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