Message

Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10:35?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10:35?

Postby Secret Alias » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:37 pm

Just curious. Before Secret Mark were there scholars arguing a section dropped out of Mark - here or elsewhere?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Secret Alias
 
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Advertisements

by »

 

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby Peter Kirby » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:07 pm

Good question. The first place I would check is the anti-literature, which might have scoured up anything if it's there (pre-discovery).

(Have you read the books arguing for forgery? If so, do they mention anything in the earlier literature?)

For reference:

Mark 10:32-34 (ESV)
32 And they were on the road, going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them. And they were amazed, and those who followed were afraid. And taking the twelve again, he began to tell them what was to happen to him, 33 saying, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles. 34 And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.”


Mark 10:35-45
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” 36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” 37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” 38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” 41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. 42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[a] 44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave[b] of all. 45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”


With the relaxed "or elsewhere" condition, I'm sure of it. It's just a matter of finding...
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4644
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Orange County

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby DCHindley » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:15 am

Peter Kirby wrote:Good question. The first place I would check is the anti-literature, which might have scoured up anything if it's there (pre-discovery).

(Have you read the books arguing for forgery? If so, do they mention anything in the earlier literature?)


I'm pretty sure that most of the "anti" faction(s) are evangelical Christians, so they do not believe that anything is missing from the NT. It is the sum total of everything God wants us to know, no more or no less.

This whole idea that something is missing from canonical Mark is just conjecture. I cannot remember if The Letter to Theodore says that Canonical Mark was a condensed version of Secret Mark, or Secret Mark an expansion of Canonical Mark. IIRC, it was the latter, but I love being wrong ...

DCH
User avatar
DCHindley
 
Posts: 1815
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby iskander » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:49 am

It was left out of the Gospel by Judaizers. Probably


http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictiona ... izers.html

In Galatians 2:14 it means to "live like Jews" (RSV, neb, NASB, Phillips),"follow Jewish customs" (NIV), or "live by the Jewish law"(Barclay). The context for this reference is the episode in Antioch when Paul condemnsPeter's withdrawal from table fellowship with Gentile Christians. Peter's actions areviewed by Paul as a serious compromise of the gospel of salvation by grace through faithalone, lending support to the position that sought to impose Jewish ceremonial law on theGentiles. Thus, Paul interprets Peter's withdrawal in terms of its effect in compellingGentile Christians to live like Jews.
iskander
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby Charles Wilson » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:05 am

John 1: 19 - 20 (RSV):

[19] And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
[20] He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."

Does anyone see anything missing from this fragment?
Of course there's someting missing!

"And this is the testimony of John...": Is this from the Preparation Day Crucifixion or the Passover Day Crucifixion?
"...the Jews": How do "the Jews" get to send priests and Levites FROM Jerusalem?

HE CONFESSED...: Why would you have to confess that you are NOT the Christ? "We'll have to beat it out of you!...Confess! You are NOT the Christ!...Hit'im again. He hasn't confessed to Not being enough yet..."

So it is with the Markan Passage. We just can't agree on what that "Something Happened" is.
Joseph Heller knew. I know. SA knows. We just don't agree on what didn't happen.

CW
Charles Wilson
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby Secret Alias » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:09 am

This whole idea that something is missing from canonical Mark is just conjecture.


DCH Right but as someone who is quite at home deconstructing these 'Secret Mark conspiracy theories' the assumption is inevitably - 'it was common knowledge' or 'it was already observed' that Mark has a lot of seeming lacunae or 'gaps' in the narrative (from which, apparently, Morton Smith 'built' the idea that a 'Secret Mark' filled the missing information). So it is that there is the assumption that other people before Smith learned the way Mark builds his narratives through chiasms from contemporary Markan scholarship (even though Markan scholarship was still in its infancy).

So when you say 'look the Secret Mark' passage is uncannily Markan they say 'it was already recognized' that Mark developed his narratives through chiasms. But was that recognized in 1958? How widespread was this knowledge? The same applies now to these 'gaps' in Mark. Maybe Smith 'figured out' something that was out of his area of expertise (he did publish a review of someone's book on Mark but were these things mentioned in that book?)

I think someone in the previous thread made the point that Smith 'knew' from scholarship that information seemed to be missing from Mark (owing to the apparent appearance of a number of lacunae). I was interested if this was just an assumption - even an erroneous assumption - looking back for us. Once you see Secret Mark the lacunae manifest themselves. But did observers notice these 'gaps' before Secret Mark? That's my question.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Secret Alias
 
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby Secret Alias » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:18 am

Again for those who aren't aware of the complexity of the problem here. To Theodore is:

1. a letter written from Clement to a certain Theodore
2. which quotes a 'lost' passage from Mark's gospel (even two passages)

As a forgery the text:

1. is a forged ancient letter
2. is a forged specimen of the writings of Clement of Alexandria
3. is a forged specimen of the writings of the evangelist Mark

But:

1. the letter looks ancient and behaves and functions as an epistle in antiquity (no obvious signs of forgery)
2. the writing exhibits strong characteristics of Clement's writing style (no obvious signs of forgery)
3. the citation of Mark behaves and appears as other passages from Mark's gospel (i.e. the chiastic structure https://www.andrews.edu/~rickyr/ntc00.html).

When people say the chiastic structure of Mark's passages was generally known in the period, that's not exactly correct. Was Smith aware of the emerging research into Mark's chiastic writing habits? Maybe (but then he was 'faking' ignorance as Koester 'taught' or revealed it to him in the 1960s http://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-arch ... ew/35/6/23). Did Smith know that there were lacunae in Mark from previous or existing research into Mark? Again, how widespread was this research? It's an interesting question.

The point would be of course - Smith might have had a 'secret hobby' studying - but never publishing - any of his 'research' into the 'architecture' of the gospel of Mark. He might have labored in his hidden laboratory uncovering 'hidden details' not known to the rest of the world, but were the apparent 'lacunae' - which now manifest themselves AFTER the discovery of the 'secret gospel' - yet another of his 'hidden fruit' from his apparent 'secret obsession with Mark. Smith was not an expert on Markan composition.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Secret Alias
 
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby JPCusickSr » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:52 am

Secret Alias wrote:Just curious. Before Secret Mark were there scholars arguing a section dropped out of Mark - here or elsewhere?

I really see nothing missing between 34-35 because it really sound like a very human thing for the sons of Zebedee to say.

Like so many real Bozos they did not really listen to what Jesus had said, and they were only self-centered and egotistical fools, and so the two had no idea of what was really going on in front of their faces.

That Jesus was dealing with simpletons need not be a surprise.
SIGNATURE:
JP Cusick Sr.
User avatar
JPCusickSr
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:50 am
Location: 20636

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby Secret Alias » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:04 am

Right but that's not the point of the thread. The discussions among the 'veterans' here are quite nuanced. The context is the question of whether Morton Smith could have 'learned' to put the 'addition' between Mark 10:34 and 35 based on what he read or better yet 'is it possible to demonstrate that the core idea behind Secret Mark from contemporary or previous scholarship on Mark' - or better yet still 'did pre-existent scholarship on Mark 'help' Morton Smith compose Secret Mark?'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Secret Alias
 
Posts: 6157
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Did Anyone Think Stuff Was Missing Between Mk 10:34 + 10

Postby iskander » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:12 am

"Morton Smith could have 'learned' to put the 'addition' between Mark 10:34 and 35"

He couldn't have added anything because he was never a student of this forum
iskander
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Advertisement

by »

 

Next

Return to Christian Texts and History

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Giuseppe, Google Adsense [Bot], MrMacSon, powindah, Stuart, Yahoo [Bot] and 54 guests