Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe »

From Didache:
16:4 And at that time the one who leads the world astray will appear as a “son of God” and will work signs and wonders, and the earth will be given into his hands, and he will do godless things which have never been done since the beginning of time.
16:5 Then human creation will pass into the testing fire and many will be scandalized and perish, but those who persevere in their belief will be saved by the curse itself.

I learn that...
Detering considers (p. 58) whether the word “curse” (katathematos) of Did 16:5 could possibly refer to the crucified Christ. He concludes, however, that it probably refers to the deceiver of the world, or perhaps the Antichrist...
http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2018/09/ ... ary-pt-33/

Hence I wonder: what if the anti-Christ/"deceiver of the world" was for the didachist precisely the crucified Jesus of Paul? After all, Paul himself says in Galatians 3:13:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole

This would be partial evidence that the Judaizers (as the didachist is) rejected the crucifixion of Jesus even if they adored a not-crucified Joshua.

In other terms, Paul invented the crucifixion of someone already named Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe »

Seen from this POV, then "the one who leads the world astray will appear as a “son of God” and will work signs and wonders, and the earth will be given into his hands, and he will do godless things which have never been done since the beginning of time." is already the cursed by God as the crucified Jesus. In other terms, the following "facts" for the didachist:

1) the apparition of a deceiver as "Son of God",

2) his working of "signs and wonders"

3) the antinomian nature of the his action

...are made by the Risen Jesus of Paul, after the his crucifixion.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by rgprice »

Interesting. I'm not sure about the answer to this, but it's an amusing point.

On a related tangent, the more I study this stuff, the more interesting ideas I come up with for stories or movies about Jesus.

So far, some interesting ones:
1) A story about Jesus as criminal who was tricking people to take their money. He and his band were pulling textbook faith healing tricks, like having his disciples pretend to be lame and then he pretending to heal them, etc. He takes his money and goes to spend it on prostitutes and gambling, etc. hiding behind a facade of righteousness.

2) A movie based on a literal direct interpretation of the Gospel of John, with all the miracles, etc. using full CGI.

3) The idea presented here, with Jesus as the anti-Christ, with the conclusion that the anti-Christ succeeded and Christianity is really the devil's religion.

4) A mythicist interpretation of the Jesus story, with Jesus's deeds in heaven, his battle with the demons and lower angles of heaven and his crucifixion in heaven.

5) A dramatic presentation of how I think the Jesus story really happened, starting with Paul and his cult and actions, leading up to the war, the writing of GMark after the war, and then how that story was misinterpreted by readers and ultimately by Roman scholars, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe »

I don't like to inquiry under the points 1 and 2, frankly.

The point 3 remains only a possibility.

I am interested about the point 4. The trial of Jesus before the sinedrites seems really in my eyes the process by which the divine Son ascends to heaven by giving the right passwords to the doorkeepers/archons (allegorized by the "sinedrites"), now replying with the silence, now mixing the cards with false witnesses, and finally proclaiming the descending of the Son of Man to earth (really: the ascending of the divine Christ to heaven, in the place of which the his earthly recipient had to suffer, to be him - just the man Jesus who observed fully the Torah, and not the Christ - the real cursed, to mean that the Torah itself is cursed).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by John2 »

Others think the curse could refer to "the fiery test." As Frayer-Griggs notes:
Didache 16:5 teaches that at the end, "all humankind will come up to the fiery test ... many will stumble and perish, but those who remain in their faith will be saved by the curse itself ..." The "curse" in this text has typically been interpreted as an allusion to Gal 3:13, according to which Christ "became a curse ... for us." However, in Milavec's view, its antecedent may be the "fiery trial" mentioned in the preceding clause, in which case the elect would be saved by the fire itself, that is by its purifying and refining effect. While Milavec's interpretation is not without its critics, he is surely correct to emphasize that "the term ... (testing) would appear to suggest that both positive and negative results are anticipated." The fire to which "all of humankind" will be subjected will presumably find some righteous and others wicked. Milavec further notes that Herm. Vis. 4.1.10, which employs the image of gold being refined by fire to symbolize the fire that destroys all that is wicked in the world, simultaneously tests and refines the elect, thus providing further evidence for the dual function of fire in early Christian thought. Similarly, the Christian Sibylline Oracles (esp. 2.286-89; 315-17; 8.411) depict a final judgment with fire. "All of this indicates," writes Milavec, "that the dual function of the eschatological fire was the preferred metaphor for God's final judgment long before Clement of Alexandria and Origen gave it theological precision within the Christian message.

... [A]lthough the very possibility that fire could have purificatory qualities is frequently ignored in the treatment of New Testament texts, it is by no means foreign to the thought world out of which these texts arose, namely the scriptures of Israel, and particularly the prophets.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t0IJD ... SE&f=false


And Finlan writes:
Pardee ... allows two possible meanings for Did. 16:5: "Jesus as an 'accursed person' " or [it] "... is a reference to the fiery testing." She favors the latter, agreeing with Draper, who says that the curse is the fiery trial. In that case, the intensive pronoun ... would mean "itself."

https://books.google.com/books?id=ab6m5 ... SE&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:58 pm Others think the curse could refer to "the fiery test." As Frayer-Griggs notes:
Didache 16:5 teaches that at the end, "all humankind will come up to the fiery test ... many will stumble and perish, but those who remain in their faith will be saved by the curse itself ..." The "curse" in this text has typically been interpreted as an allusion to Gal 3:13, according to which Christ "became a curse ... for us." However, in Milavec's view, its antecedent may be the "fiery trial" mentioned in the preceding clause, in which case the elect would be saved by the fire itself, that is by its purifying and refining effect. While Milavec's interpretation is not without its critics, he is surely correct to emphasize that "the term ... (testing) would appear to suggest that both positive and negative results are anticipated." The fire to which "all of humankind" will be subjected will presumably find some righteous and others wicked. Milavec further notes that Herm. Vis. 4.1.10, which employs the image of gold being refined by fire to symbolize the fire that destroys all that is wicked in the world, simultaneously tests and refines the elect, thus providing further evidence for the dual function of fire in early Christian thought. Similarly, the Christian Sibylline Oracles (esp. 2.286-89; 315-17; 8.411) depict a final judgment with fire. "All of this indicates," writes Milavec, "that the dual function of the eschatological fire was the preferred metaphor for God's final judgment long before Clement of Alexandria and Origen gave it theological precision within the Christian message.

... [A]lthough the very possibility that fire could have purificatory qualities is frequently ignored in the treatment of New Testament texts, it is by no means foreign to the thought world out of which these texts arose, namely the scriptures of Israel, and particularly the prophets.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t0IJD ... SE&f=false


And Finlan writes:
Pardee ... allows two possible meanings for Did. 16:5: "Jesus as an 'accursed person' " or [it] "... is a reference to the fiery testing." She favors the latter, agreeing with Draper, who says that the curse is the fiery trial. In that case, the intensive pronoun ... would mean "itself."

https://books.google.com/books?id=ab6m5 ... SE&f=false
Among those scholars who agree that "the curse" is the same thing as "the fiery trial," there is still disagreement as to whether this "fiery trial" is (A) a temporal persecution (at the hands of the deceiver) or (B) the final judgment. I hold with A: it is the persecution brought on by the advent of the deceiver of the world:

1 Peter 4.12-13: 12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial among you [τῇ ἐν ὑμῖν πυρώσει], which comes upon you for your testing [πρὸς πειρασμὸν], as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.

Didache 16.5: 5 Then shall the creation of humanity come into the fiery trial [εἰς τὴν πύρωσιν] of proofing [τῆς δοκιμασίας], and many shall be scandalized and shall perish; but those who remain in their faith shall be saved by the curse itself [= by the very same fiery trial of testing, the faithful endurance of which constitutes having passed the test].

Then the Lord appears in Didache 16.6-8, spelling doom for the deceiver of the world.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote:
Among those scholars who agree that "the curse" is the same thing as "the fiery trial," there is still disagreement as to whether this "fiery trial" is (A) a temporal persecution (at the hands of the deceiver) or (B) the final judgment. I hold with A: it is the persecution brought on by the advent of the deceiver of the world ...
I buy that. In any event, I gather that it's all an exposition of Mt. 24, which appears to be alluded to in 16:3-4:
... for in the last days the false prophets and the corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate; for as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray ...


Mt. 24:10-13:
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
There is also a reference to the Anti-Christ in the Shem Tov Hebrew Mt. 24:15-16:
And this gospel, that is, evungili, will be preached in all the earth for a witness concerning me to all the nations and then the end will come. This is the Anti-Christ and this is the abomination which desolates.
I can't read what Howard says about this online, but I have his book at home and will track it down later. If memory serves, he sees it as a gloss explaining what the abomination that causes desolation is that was later inserted awkwardly into the text (since where it is now means that the preaching of the gospel to Gentiles is the anti-Christ). In any event, it, like the Didache, is Jewish Christian or associated with Jewish Christians, and both insert the idea of "the deceiver of the world" into Mt. 24.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:08 pm Ben wrote:
Among those scholars who agree that "the curse" is the same thing as "the fiery trial," there is still disagreement as to whether this "fiery trial" is (A) a temporal persecution (at the hands of the deceiver) or (B) the final judgment. I hold with A: it is the persecution brought on by the advent of the deceiver of the world ...
I buy that. In any event, I gather that it's all an exposition of Mt. 24....
As you may recall, I draw the arrow in the opposite direction: Matthew 24 borrowed from something like Didache 16, and not vice versa; but we have been over that before: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1882&start=40#p47913.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by John2 »

I was going by what I'm seeing others say re: Did. 16:5 and Mt. 24. They appear to be related one way or another, and I will take a fresh look at your thread.

And for the record, regarding one of my comments there, I've since changed my mind that Mark is Pauline (or solely Pauline). I see it as being more Jewish Christian, via Peter, as Papias says. But Peter too, in my view, is somewhat Pauline. But I don't see Mark as being solely Pauline anymore, just somewhat (like Peter).
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Was the didachist an enemy of Paul's crucified Jesus?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:54 pm I was going by what I'm seeing others say re: Did. 16:5 and Mt. 24. They appear to be related one way or another, and I will take a fresh look at your thread.

And for the record, regarding one of my comments there, I've since changed my mind that Mark is Pauline (or solely Pauline). I see it as being more Jewish Christian, via Peter, as Papias says. But Peter too, in my view, is somewhat Pauline. But I don't see Mark as being solely Pauline anymore, just somewhat (like Peter).
Those categories (Petrine, Pauline, Jewish Christian) are obviously far more solidly delineated in your mind than in mine.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply