Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

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Giuseppe
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Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »


Justin (vers 103-168)

L'apologiste chrétien Justin a écrit en grec plusieurs oeuvres dont trois nous sont parvenues: deux Apologies dont la première (150-153) présente un intérêt majeur, et un Dialogue de controverse avec le juif Tryphon (vers 160).

L'exégèse conservatrice prétend que ce théologien connaissait not évangiles canoniques. En réalité il connaît une partie de leur sources, mais non pas le texte même que nous possédons. C'est ce qu'a montré Guy Fau en dressant un tableau parallèle des citations que nous trouvons chez Justin et des versets évangéliques qui leur correspondent. [122] Ce tableau et certaines dissonances entre Justin et les canoniques permettent d'affirmer que ceux-ci ont paru après lui ou avant qu'il ait pu les utiliser.

En comparant, en effet, les citations de Justin avec les versets correspondants nous avons constaté que l'ensemble tiré des Evangiles est plus long d'un tiers environ. Or une loi mise en lumière par l'Ecole formiste veut que les textes les plus récents soient amplifiés par rapport aux précédents. Nos recueils sont donc postérieurs à Justin.

D'autre part les différences permettent de voir qu'il n'a pas lu Matthieu, car, lors du baptême de Jésus, Justin fait s'allumer un feu sur le Jourdain; il fait naître le Christ dans une grotte et ignore l'Annonce aux mages. Il suit une tradition pré-lucanienne en faisant descendre de David, Marie et non Joseph; Dial. 45:4. [123]

Le point le plus grave est que Justin ne présente qu'une matière religieuse. Pour Goguel, «Justin n'a pas eu d'autre documentation que celle qu'il trouvait dans les Evangiles»; Jésus, p. 77. Pour nous, hors des «Mémorables» qu'il a consultés, c'est-à-dire hors d'une littérature pré-canonique et apocryphe, il ignore tout de Jésus, sinon ce qu'il imagine. Ses références à Platon et aux Actes de Pilate n'apportent rien qui assure le fait même de la Crucifixion.

L'oeuvre de Justin nous a conduit aux conclusions suivantes:

a) Son Jésus est beaucoup moins étoffé que celui des Evangiles; il n'est encore que son ébauche;

b) La source de sa documentation est surtout scripturaire;

c) Il parle de la Crucifixion, mais à part le nom de Pilate il semble ne rien connaître de la Passion;

d) Les Mémorables des apôtres auxquels il fait allusion restent énigmatiques; il ne nomme pas leurs auteurs alors que sa thèse l'exigeait: «Quand notre apologiste, écrit Guignebert, parle des Mémoires des apôtres [...] nous ne savons pas de quels textes il dispose»; Jésus, p. 30.

Nous conclurons en disant avec Guy Fau: «Il apparaît donc certain que, si Justin connaissait vers 160 des éléments qui seront repris dans les synoptiques, il n'en connaissait pas encore la rédaction». [124]

(J.K.Watson, Le christianisme avant Jésus-Christ, p. 290-291)

[122] FAU, Justin et les Evangiles, C.R., 91, 1975.
[124] FAU, le Puzzle..., 136. LENZMANN pense que Justin n'a connu du N.T. que l'Apocalypse, o.c., 200.

Given the strong hostility against the Jews witnessed by Justin, I wouldn't be surprised if just he was the first who introduced Pilate in the pre-gospel writings in his possession, in virtue of the perennial principle 'the enemy of the my enemy is my friend'.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »

So the evolution would be:

memorabilia ----> Justin (Acts of Pilate) -----> Mcn ----> Mark ---> Matthew ---> John----> Luke

Mcn may come even before Justin (so Fau, Couchoud, Klinghardt and Vinzent) but at any case it seems that the memorabilia were already in the hands of Justin when he faced the marcionite invasion. And frankly, 8-) 8-) 8-) said inter nos, I doubt that Pilate was known by Marcion.

...Or, to satisfy Markan prioritists:

memorabilia ----> Justin (Acts of Pilate) -----> Mark ---> Mcn ---> Matthew ---> John----> Luke
schillingklaus
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by schillingklaus »

Justin's version proves once more the falsity of the naive belief of the baptsim being meant as a rite for the remission of sins or external puiity. Rather, it is meant for illumination (photismos), the acquisition of the charismatic spirit, the Judaized version of the Intellect of Corpus Hermeticum IV. So Hebrews addresses illuminated members of the community who have gone astray.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:58 am
So the evolution would be:

memorabilia ----> Justin (Acts of Pilate) -----> Mcn ----> Mark ---> Matthew ---> John----> Luke

Mcn may come even before Justin (so Fau, Couchoud, Klinghardt and Vinzent) but at any case it seems that the memorabilia were already in the hands of Justin when he faced the marcionite invasion. And frankly, 8-) 8-) 8-) said inter nos, I doubt that Pilate was known by Marcion.

...Or, to satisfy Markan prioritists:

memorabilia ----> Justin (Acts of Pilate) -----> Mark ---> Mcn ---> Matthew ---> John----> Luke

It's possible to the point of being probable that Justin and Marcion were contemporaries and each knew each other's theologies if not each other's texts: Markus Vinzent has hinted at records of this (which I will look for & post later)

ETA

In his 2014 book, Marcion and the dating of the Synoptic Gospels, Vinzent notes that Irenaeus documents Justin Martyr's To Marcion and that it points to either a conversation with or a reply to Marcion in a theological debate rather than heresiological polemic against him in that early scenario.

Vinzent thinks there are indications that Justin knew Paul through Marcion but rejected Marcion's apparent reverence for Paul's theology (or aspects of it, at least).

Vinzent uses Irenaeus' commentary about Justin at Adv. Haer. IV 6,2 to say that Justin Martyr


''reject[ed a] core reading of Marcion [of 2 Cor.12:4.] and counter-argue[d] that, even if Marcion's reading of Paul were correct and the Lord had announced 'any other than He who is our framer, maker, and nourisher', he [ie. Justin] would not have believed the Lord himself. That Justin insists that his faith 'is steadfast', hence he could not have been shaken even by the Lord himself, underlines that Marcion's prooftext, Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians, must have made an impression on readers. Justin's sceptical position in our fragment [Iren. Adv. Haer. IV 6,2] may also explain why, despite him writing to (and later against) Marcion, and therefore having had knowledge of Paul's letters, in his extant work he never refers to either Paul or his letters. Justin adds his theological statement that his 'love to the Father [is] immovable, god bestowing both [faith and love] upon us' as if the addressee (Marcion!) was still regarded by Justin as belonging to the same community ('upon us') and as if Justin was still hoping to find a susceptible Marcion."

Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels, 2014, p.11


Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Oct 28, 2022 4:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by MrMacSon »

In English:

.< . . omitted . . >
Conservative exegesis claims that this theologian [Justin Martyr] did not know canonical gospels. In reality he knows some of their sources, but not the actual text we have. Guy Fau has shown this by drawing a parallel table of the quotations we find in Justin and the evangelical verses that correspond to them. [122] This table, and some dissonances between Justin and the canonicals, make it possible to affirm that these appeared after him or before he could use them.

By comparing Justin's quotations with the corresponding verses, we found that the set from the Gospels is about a third longer. However...the 'Formist School' wanted the most recent texts to be amplified compared to the previous ones. Our collections are therefore posterior to Justin.

On the other hand, the differences make it possible to see that he did not read Matthew, because, at the baptism of Jesus, Justin kindles a fire on the Jordan; he gives birth to Christ in a cave; and ignores the Announcement to the Magi. [Justin] follows a pre-Lucanian tradition by descending from David, Mary, and not Joseph; Dial. 45:4. [123]

The most serious point is that Justin presents only religious matter ... apart from the "Memorabilia" he consulted, that is to say, outside pre-canonical and apocryphal literature, he knows nothing about Jesus, except what he imagines. His references to Plato and the Acts of Pilate do not add anything that ensures the fact of the crucifixion.

Justin's work has led us to the following conclusions:
  1. His Jesus is much less fleshed out than that of the Gospels; it is still only its draft;
    .
  2. The source of its documentation is mainly scriptural;
    .
  3. He speaks of the Crucifixion, but apart from the name of Pilate he seems to know nothing of the Passion;
    .
  4. The Memoirs of the Apostles to which he refers remain enigmatic; he does not name their authors although his thesis required it: "When our apologist," Guignebert writes, "speaks of the Memoirs of the Apostles [...] we do not know what texts they contain"; Jesus, p. 30.
We will conclude with a quote of Guy Fau: "It therefore seems certain that, if Justin knew around 160 of the elements that will be included in the synoptics, he did not yet know the writing". [124]


(J.K.Watson, Le christianisme avant Jésus-Christ, pp.290-291)

[122] FAU, Justin et les Evangiles, C.R., 91, 1975.
[124] FAU, le Puzzle..., 136. LENZMANN pense que Justin n'a connu du N.T. que l'Apocalypse, o.c., 200.

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:05 pm In English:

On the other hand, the differences make it possible to see that he did not read Matthew, because, at the baptism of Jesus, Justin kindles a fire on the Jordan; he gives birth to Christ in a cave; and ignores the Announcement to the Magi.

From Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html

For at the time of His birth, Magi who came from Arabia worshipped Him, coming first to Herod...
...
Now this king Herod, at the time when the Magi came to him from Arabia, and said they knew from a star which appeared in the heavens that a King had been born in your country, and that they had come to worship Him... Accordingly the Magi from Arabia came to Bethlehem and worshipped the Child, and presented Him with gifts, gold and frankincense, and myrrh; but returned not to Herod, being warned in a revelation after worshipping the Child in Bethlehem...
...
... another Scripture says, 'Behold a man; the East is His name.' Accordingly, when a star rose in heaven at the time of His birth, as is recorded in the memoirs of His apostles, the Magi from Arabia, recognising the sign by this, came and worshipped Him.


Justin also mentions the apostle John, though only as the author of Revelation. He doesn't specify whether John was one of the authors of the "memoirs".
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by schillingklaus »

The Memorabilia thus also prove the absolute falsity of Markan Prioritism.
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 3:56 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:05 pm
In English:

On the other hand, the differences make it possible to see that he did not read Matthew, because, at the baptism of Jesus, Justin kindles a fire on the Jordan; he gives birth to Christ in a cave; and ignores the Announcement to the Magi.

I'm not sure what Watson might mean by 'the Announcement to the Magi.'

Whether it's (1) the difference between a star or his or the star:
  • Justin with 'a star which appeared in the heaven'
  • Matt 2:2 has, "We saw his star when it rose".
    Matt 2:7,9, and 10 have the star

    (No doubt the Greek would be more relevant that the English: his and the are in both the NIV and YLT

Or whether it may be (2) the Herod's order to the Magi to report 'the child' to him as soon as they found Him which is in Matt 2:8 but not i]Dial[/i] 78:


7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.


Both Dial 78 and Matt. 2:12 report that the Magi decided not to return to Herod following a revelation.

and to put the excerpt of Watson's commentary in context:


By comparing Justin's quotations with the corresponding verses, we found that the set from the Gospels is about a third longer. However...the l'Ecole formiste wanted the most recent texts to be amplified compared to the previous ones. Our collections are therefore posterior to Justin.

On the other hand, the differences make it possible to see that he did not read Matthew, because, at the baptism of Jesus, Justin kindles a fire on the Jordan; he gives birth to Christ in a cave; and ignores the Announcement to the Magi ...


I presume l'Ecole formiste is a reference to the later, eventual [orthodox] 'school' which formed the NT


I think, however, there is a reasonable question to address about the chronological order of the first appearance of the relevant passage/s in Matt 2, Dialogue 78 and the Protevangelium of James/Jacob.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:45 am I'm not sure what Watson might mean by 'the Announcement to the Magi.'

Whether it's (1) the difference between a star or his or the star:
  • Justin with 'a star which appeared in the heaven'
  • Matt 2:2 has, "We saw his star when it rose".
    Matt 2:7,9, and 10 have the star

    (No doubt the Greek would be more relevant that the English: his and the are in both the NIV and YLT

Or whether it may be (2) the Herod's order to the Magi to report 'the child' to him as soon as they found Him which is in Matt 2:8 but not i]Dial[/i] 78:
Yes, I guess it has to be something like that, that I'm missing the context. It's same for his comment about Justin mentioning the fire on the Jordan and Christ being born in a cave suggesting Justin didn't read gMatthew. How can Justin mentioning things that aren't in gMatthew be an indication that he didn't read gMatthew? I don't see the logic. But again, I may be missing the context.
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Re: Was Justin the first who introduced Pilate?

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:24 am ... It's same for his comment about Justin mentioning the fire on the Jordan and Christ being born in a cave suggesting Justin didn't read gMatthew. How can Justin mentioning things that aren't in gMatthew be an indication that he didn't read gMatthew? I don't see the logic. But again, I may be missing the context.
I think the implication is that Justin wouldn't have mentioned those things if he knew G.Matthew as we know it.

I think it's suspicious that so many of the commentaries of the early Church Fathers both mention so many so-called heretic things and don't seem to have a handle on the key Christian texts or doctrines. I'm suspicious that Irenaeus spends so much of the first half or so of Against Heresies discussing 'heretical' things before he mentions *Christian* things.
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:05 pm
.< . . omitted . . >
We will conclude with a quote of Guy Fau: "It therefore seems certain that, if Justin knew around 160 of the elements that will be included in the synoptics, he did not yet know the writing". [124]

[124] FAU, le Puzzle..., 136. LENZMANN pense que Justin n'a connu du N.T. que l'Apocalypse, o.c., 200.[/size]


(J.K.Watson, Le christianisme avant Jésus-Christ, pp.290-291)

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