Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

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Ulan
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

Steven Avery wrote:The bottom line is that the colour was done to excellent standards and is extremely reliable (albeit not perfect). With flexibility regarding the small number of leaves at Saint Catherine's, where the conditions for photography were more difficult.

Now, I don't expect you to accept this on my sharing.
What is there to discuss? Just from the color bars you can see that the British Library images would look more yellow than in reality, and the Leipzig images would look whiter than in reality. Those color bars are there to tell you exactly this.
Ulan
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

Steven Avery wrote:Is "obtained" a new euphenims for stole?
It may well be. We will never know.
Steven Avery wrote:The Uspensky account shows that the whole manuscript was together in those years.
Unlikely, when sheets from Sinaiticus were used for binding other books.
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:btw a possible argument against Steven's theory could be the following ... 2009 - Nikolas Sarris discovers one more fragment in a book binding at St Catherine's Monastery[/color]
And I agree that this is a possible argument. However, it is really clear, with major elements of Hermas (full of controversy for Tischendorf, since he had to retract his accusation against Simonides) in the New Finds, that the stash got in there in the 1850s. Uspensky noted all the books, and his sense is that Hermas was complete. It helps if you understand the situation, as the Hermas text threatened to undermine the whole Sinaiticus find, after the Simonides publication of 1856. Granted, this critical history is generally unknown and ignored. Even with the abbreviated Hermas, the learned James Donaldson ripped the Tischendorf claims based on the problems with Hermas and Barnabas. The Simonides publication "coincidence" of publishing those two works BEFORE 1859 adds to the Sinaiticus extreme difficulties.

Also a Genesis leaf that showed up in the New Finds was a major issue in the Simonides controversies.

We have had some correspondence and analysis on this question, and I agree it is important.

Steven
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Ulan wrote:
Steven Avery wrote:The Uspensky account shows that the whole manuscript was together in those years.
Ulan wrote:Unlikely, when sheets from Sinaiticus were used for binding other books.
The whole manuscript above means the whole manuscript we have today. Clearly we do not know if the manuscript lost pages before 1844. And if they were lost in Sinai, or Athos, or on a boat, or maybe some of them were never made (since the OT is incomplete).

Kallinikos said that Tischendorf mangled the manuscript. And most of what got into the New Finds are clearly Tischendorf discards. The Joshua fragment, if it is "original Sinaiticus" can have any one of a number of sources.

As I explain above, the New Finds material looks to be 1840s-1850s material. If one fragment (not sheets) of the Tisch-discards were put to other uses in that period, that does not affect what was seen in 1845 by Uspensky, which, except for the Hermas discard in the New Finds, is what we have today.

Steven
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Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Ulan wrote:What is there to discuss? Just from the color bars you can see that the British Library images would look more yellow than in reality, and the Leipzig images would look whiter than in reality. Those color bars are there to tell you exactly this.

That has virtually nothing to do with the huuuggee Leipzig-BritishLibrary distinction in colour, a difference which is even acknowledged clearly by the British Library. Those types of small colour bar differences were in fact among the topics that were discussed in 2016.

Steven
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

DCHindley wrote:I he may have just as likely used that story, probably wholly made up, to justify the theft because the shame he felt, and I'm sure he felt some, was not enough to overcome the fame that he knew would come his way from the discovery of such a rare manuscript.
You may not realize that he did not make up that story until 15 years later. He needed to look good, and the transparent fabrication was fabulously successful. He played the political and textual world for marks.
DCHindley wrote:Now, if Sinaiticus is a modern fake, the most likely suspect would not be Tisch., but Simonides. This is not because Sim. makes such a claim, one that he may have just made up to try to pop Tisch.'s balloon of fame in a fit of jealously, but because if anyone was capable of doing such a thing, it would be Simonides, a somewhat shadier but much more practiced version of Tisch. himself.
This is reasonable speculation, although I think the "balloon of fame" idea has been a worthless speculation attempt from the beginning. (If Simonides really had not been involved, at least in some elements, the coincidences would have been far too amazing, and there would have been a 99% chance that some real provenance for the ms. would be shown, blowing the whole thing up immediately.) There also are indications of cooperation between the two men at times. I am interested in any good attempt to connect all the dots.

Did you know that Simonides is reported to have worked at .. the Russian Archives in St. Petersburg. After the Sinaiticus issues quieted down.

the Russians hire Simonides to prepare historical documents after the 1867 fake obituary
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?t=176
DCHindley wrote: Similarly, Simonides name was on the library card in the pocket attached to the remaining binding at the front of the Voss edition of the Ignatian corpus in which Morton Smith found that beautifully written fragment of Theodore at Mar Saba. That fact is, in fact, a little known fact.
Thanks for that. The Europeans had a 2014 Simonides Conference in Vienna. I will pass that along to some of the interested scholars over there. And would like to know more myself.

Steven
Steven Avery
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Codex Sinaiticus - homoeoteleuton

Post by Steven Avery »

Hi BCHF,

Now for a little treat, a change of pace, for our iron sharpeneth friends. We have seen that BCHF can be considered the best open discussion forum on Codex Sinaiticus authenticity on the net. Good thinkers, fine counterpoint.

Here is the beginning of a little research project. We are moving over to textual realms. The goal is to gather information as to sources that were used in the making of Codex Sinaiticus. The paper being uploaded as an attachment shows that the evidence points to Codex Claromontanus (D06) being used as a source in the scribal creation of Sinaitcius. The variant involved is 1 Corinthians 13:1-2. The main topic is homoeoteleuton although there is the related topic of textual similarity. The doc is kept as an attachment in order to keep it well-formatted.

This was researched and written by one of the members of our team. He prefers to remain anonymous at this time, please respect that situation. And he has given me the ok to share the information. And we hope that sharing this might lead to some iron sharpeneth responses.

And I do have a bit of the surrounding information about how this connection was found. And there are additional examples of the homoeoteleuton phenomenon to be studied from Claromontanus. As well as other possible new checking, of both other features and other manuscripts, that can be considered. The Claromontanus ms. history is also fascinating. And I will be able to pass along feedback, buzz, complements, criticism and counterpoint.

And I would be pleased also to discuss the probability issues involved, which comes to play in looking at the degree of data match. e.g. Would you find such "hits" even if there was not dependency? As well as considering possible alternative scenarios like having a common source. Also there are related scribal issues that can be checked, like spelling and punctuation. This is a fascinating field.

Inquiries from people interested in assisting in the research is also welcome, although generally that type of discussion would be better done privately. You can contact the SART team through the email addy given at http://www.sinaiticus.net .

Or you might want to run with what you see here and do your own study. We only ask that you acknowledge this Feb 19, 2017 forum doc, from the SART team, in your own work. This is the first public sharing of this information anywhere. Your feedback is appreciated, regardless of whether you are in the textual analysis world or not.

And I have put together a layman's guide to the document being uploaded now. I'll tweak it and plan on posting it tonight. Our team member did such a good job in his presentation that I felt it is best to simply start with these pages.

Steven
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Claromontanus.odt
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Steven Avery
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Codex Sinaiticus - homeoteleuton - layman's guide

Post by Steven Avery »

And the next attachment is the layman's guide. It is three pages as an .rtf . (Do you need .doc or .odt ? Just let me know.)

Three pages.

First 2 pages, same as above - some trimming of pic to allow side-by-side.

Third page. My thoughts shared.

Thanks!

Steven
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Claromontanus Sinaiticus homoteleuton layman's guide.rtf
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - homoeoteleuton

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Steven Avery wrote:Here is the beginning of a little research project. We are moving over to textual realms. The goal is to gather information as to sources that were used in the making of Codex Sinaiticus. The paper being uploaded as an attachment shows that the evidence points to Codex Claromontanus (D06) being used as a source in the scribal creation of Sinaitcius. The variant involved is 1 Corinthians 13:1-2. The main topic is homoeoteleuton although there is the related topic of textual similarity. The doc is kept as an attachment in order to keep it well-formatted.
I can only speak about GMark. Sorry for being off the topic, but I would claim that such a research with regard to GMark is nearly hopeless. That has nothing to do with the famous text variants, but with many little and rather unknown variants. I would say that the Sinaiticus’ version of GMark has 30-40 really outstanding text variants. To give a few examples (two or three are mentioned in another thread)

Mark 1:8 I baptized you in water, but he will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.”
CodSin I baptized you in water, but he will baptize in the Holy Spirit.”

Mark 2:13 And he went forth again beside the sea and all the crowd came to him and he taught them.
CodSin And they went forth again to the sea and all the crowd came to them and he taught them.

Mark 6:38 He said to them, “How many loaves do you have? Go see.” When they knew, they said, “Five, and two fish.”
Mark 6:38 He said to them, “How many loaves do you have? Go see.” When they came, they said, “Five, and two fish.”

Mark 6:53 When they had crossed over, they came to land at Gennesaret, and moored to the shore (προσωρμίσθησαν)
minor variant: omit προσωρμίσθησαν
CodSin προσωρμηθησαν (it can mean “moored to the shore” or “and they were rushed” like the pigs in Mark 5:13)

Mark 9:14 Coming to the disciples, he saw a great multitude around them, and scribes questioning them.
CodSin Coming to the disciples, he saw a great multitude around them, and scribes questioning among themselves.

Mark 11:20 And they passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree having been dried up from roots.
CodSin And he passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree having been dried up from roots.

Mark 13:10 And to all the nations first it behoves to proclaim the gospel
CodSin And to all the nations, first to the people (of Israel) it behoves to proclaim the gospel

You will not find a MS for these variants
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Thanks!

Textual variants in Sinaiticus is an interesting topic.

However, it has zero to do with the topic of noting relationships between two manuscripts that can be seen by the scribal phenomenon of homoeoteleuton.

Steven
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