Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3442
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by DCHindley »

So let me get this straight.

Sinaiticus is a fake, and a plot by Tichendorf, in collusion with the Pope, which along with Vaticanus (also a fake), to "change" true Christian doctrine as found in the Textus Receptus, a reconstruction of the Mss used to translate the KJV, and essentially the same as the Majority text.

I've "read between the lines" here with the help of this web site:

http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/waite-fourfold1.html

Doesn't this basically fall under the definition of a "conspiracy theory"? Quite a lot of "scholarly" ink has been spilled to prove many such theories, and if believed, would mean the earth is hollow, the space landings on the moon were faked, the holocaust never happened during WW2, and President Obama was a Muslim secret agent "planted" to replace US law with Sharia law.

To that I must add my conviction that
It is a well known fact ... that the term ["Crackpot"] is derived from the full titled name of a famous inventor, Commander Caractacus Pott, who was primary known for inventing the edible phonograph record. This and similar useless inventions earned him the nickname "Commander Crackpot". However, and this can no doubt be confirmed by an unbiased examination of the newspaper records of his day (2nd decade of the 20th century), he successfully developed a whistling candy treat, which became a local craze in the British Isles to the extent that Commander "Crackpot" became independently wealthy.

All this aside, "Crackpot" made some amazing and wonderful claims about the properties of an old race car, once owned by millionaire racer, Count Louis Zborowski, a chain-driven customized Mercedes with a 23-litre 6-cylinder Maybach aero-engine (the same engine utilized by the Nazis to power their heavy Tiger I tank in WW2), to wit, that it had a crusty personality and amazing abilities such as the ability to fly and cruise like a boat.

He had found the car in ruins in an old barn and bought it dirt cheap. Investing a goodly chunk of his whistle candy fortune into the vehicle's restoration, his mechanical abilities were enough to allow him to replace all the bells & whistles with genuine OEM parts, but his engineering skills fell short of letting him comprehend what they all did, or so he claims. The car allegedly told him by labels that would pop out of certain instruments that he should do this, or that, and called him an "idiot" for not figuring it out himself. In other words, the car was Mr. Pott's way of working out his frustrations over his sexual relationship with his spouse, Mimsie.

Now I must say, that as a rationalist, it is impossible for a roadster of that kind to fly in the air (despite the Maybach aero-engine), or swim like a boat (despite the Volkswagen made "Schwimwagon" that was to come in the late 1930s, an amphibious version of the Wehrmacht's equivalent of the US Willey's "Jeep", sold in the US in the 1960s as the VW "Thing" utility vehicle).These claims, I am afraid, must be taken on faith!

These additional factoids are noted to justify my rationalization that Commander "Crackpot" did indeed exist, flew over the traffic to the chalk cliffs of Dover, sailed to Calais France, found the hidden cache of munitions, ammunition and "Gelignite" explosives, owned by a certain super secret criminal organization of bank robbers and safe crackers. I also believe that the Pott family succeeded in blowing up the cache and earned the ire of the criminals all.

I also believe that the "Crackpots" saved Monsieur Bon-Bon, who graciously awarded the family with the recipe for making his world-famous "Fooj". So I pass on to you what has been received by me, that on the night in which Monsieur Bon-Bon was saved, his wife revealed the secret formula for his "fooj":
1 pound granulated sugar
1/4 pound finest butter
1 tbsp water
4 tbsp unsweetened chocolate
1 small can of evaporated milk
1 tbps corn syrip

Put all the ingredients into a saucepan. Melt slowly on low gas until mixture thickens slightly and is absolutely smooth. Turn up gas and boil very quickly until it forms into a soft ball when a sample is dropped into cold water. Remove from heat and beat well with a wooden spoon. Pour the whole mixture into a flat, greased pan, mark in squares and leave to set. When cold, DEVOUR!
I can confess that in response to this formula as divulged by the historical account by Ian Fleming (published 1963), my family did truly make this fooj as described above. We cut it, and after reflecting deeply on our worthiness to taste such a delight, we did eat, and it satisfied our every need.

Yet some claim that Corn Syrup was not known, or known under a different name, in Jolly Ol' England at that time, suggesting that the account is an interpolation. However, I have secured, at great expense, a hardbound copy of said book, to prove it said what it is said to have said. And, for emphasis, I have the heavily carried teeth to prove that it was consumed. The work of experts has found that the corn "syrip" (syrup spelled to sound Frenchy) was not "high fructose" corn syrup, sometimes called "corn sugar" and a relatively recent invention, but plain old corn syrup like you'd use on your pancakes if you did not have maple syrup or molasses close to hand.

Do not confuse Fleming's account of the Potts family exploits, a true piece of historical narrative, with the screen adaptation, which made a mockery of Fleming's true account.
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... pot#p45077 etc

It is safe to say that the Movie of same name was created to make a mockery of the original pure story as given by the God-breathed author Ian Fleming and introduced many heresies into the true historical account. Any inability to find corroborating evidence in newspaper articles of the time are the result of the influence of organized crime, as the safecracker context, including the 'fooj', is conspicuously absent from the movie version.

DCH
Steven Avery wrote:
rakovsky wrote:How different are sinaicitus verses from other Bible versions?
What is the motive? Fame and cash?
Great questions.

The difference is fairly large, in terms of doctrine. This was hashed out in the 1860s when Porfiry Uspensky accused the text of being heretical, on issues like the virgin birth. That could be another discussion.

However, the signficance is not so much the Sinaiticus oddball variants, which are often rejected, especially singulars. The big signfiicance is how it became a Robin to the Vaticanus Batman in creating the Westcott-Hort recension (which is the foundation of all Critical Text editions since 1881). Without Sinaiticus it is safe to say that the recension would never have been accepted. (For this, you go into the turgid Hortian explanations and the scholarship reactions in the following years.)

Another significance is the abject corruption of the text. The thousands of errors and obvious corruptions, that are generally just ignored and passed over. It is scribally a disaster.

> Fame and cash?

In terms of the vain-glorious Tischendorf, these were clearly key motives.

The question of a hidden hand behind the Critical Text] is another element to be considered. Tischendorf's passport was found right outside the monastery in pristine condition.

The last line was edgy humor. However, there are a lot of strange circumstances, such as when Tischendorf had the ms. in his private hands with two unnamed Germans for months in Cairo in 1859. And the obvious colouring of the part that went to St. Petersburg. Rarely do you ever see such a clear smoking gun, since we have both BEFORE & AFTER of the colouring by lemon-juice available to us today.

Also, looking at what happenned before the ms. suddenly appeared at St. Catherine's is a fascinating project, however a lot of study there has to be conjectural, looking at things like Tischendorf's visits to the papacy, his later comment that he had Vaticanus available at the time, the comment of Hort about "rich materials", stuff like that.

Steven
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Those are from two separate "deliveries", right?
1844 Lepizig is fully white parchment, with barely any stains on the 43 leaves.
1859 St. Petersburg to the British Library
There are the same as super-supple young ms.

1859 is unevenly coloured throughout (The NT somewhat less so than the OT.) Uneven colouring means that you need to look at full pages, since there can be spots uncoloured.

Looking at the full pages is done here, looking at consecutive leafs.
http://www.sinaiticus.net/four%20contig ... oints.html
All pages
http://www.sinaiticus.net/four%20contig ... oints.html

Because the colouring is uneven and prone to staining, you can tell very little from a fragment. The phenomenon of the 1859 NT being less dark than the 1859 OT should be noted, and there are theories of why this occurred. Both are darker than the white parchment of Leipzig.

Steven
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

DCHindley wrote:So let me get this straight. Sinaiticus is a fake, and a plot by Tichendorf, in collusion with the Pope, which along with Vaticanus (also a fake), to "change" true Christian doctrine as found in the Textus Receptus, a reconstruction of the Mss used to translate the KJV, and essentially the same as the Majority text. I've "read between the lines" here with the help of this web site:
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/waite-fourfold1.html Doesn't this basically fall under the definition of a "conspiracy theory"?

Those elements, yes. And I do not consider them very relevant to our inquiry. While in many matters I definitely affirm "conspiracy theories", I consider that a relatively unimportant part of the Codex Sinaiticus authenticity inquiry. The first question is, what does the historical and manuscript evidence show.

ADDED: I do believe the historical element of how Sinaiticus was used to create the Westcott-Hort recension, a very corrupt text, is important to understand. These elements come to play whether the creation, and finding, of Sinaiticus, and falsely trumpeting its supposed age as 4th century, have elements of deliberate intention. Or whether they were simply the outgrowth of quirky events of the era. Either way, the textual science around it is built on sand, and the textual criticism scholarship community has been, at best, asleep at the wheel.
DCHindley wrote:Quite a lot of "scholarly" ink has been spilled to prove many such theories, and if believed, would mean the earth is hollow, the space landings on the moon were faked, the holocaust never happened during WW2, and President Obama was a Muslim secret agent "planted" to replace US law with Sharia law.

And the Gulf of Tonkin raid actually never occurred as the government and media reported. And Building 7 did not fall from a fire. On the four you listed, I do spend a little time on the moon landing question.

However, the varying views of what is a "conspiracy theory" and how that term has been negativized are rather irrelevant to the historical and scientific question of Sinaiticus authenticity. There could easily have been simply a set of weird and surprising coincidences involved with Sinaiticus (this need to look at amazing coincidences is true in both the authenticity and inauthentic scenarios.)
DCHindley wrote:the corn "syrip" (syrup spelled to sound Frenchy) was not "high fructose" corn syrup, sometimes called "corn sugar" and a relatively recent invention, but plain old corn syrup like you'd use on your pancakes if you did not have maple syrup or molasses close to hand.
Interesting.
And I wonder if this is true about the new stuff.
Bees consuming soda pop get insecticide from the corn syrip except in Canada were corn syrip is banned. Canada doesn't have the problems with honey bee collapse that the rest of the northern hemisphere does. http://www.countercurrents.org/weyler140613.htm
http://readersupportednews.org/pm-secti ... rom-danger
Steven
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

So what is so special about the color of Sinaiticus? For example, if you ignore the inner corners that someone must have dunked into liquid, Alexandrinus looks mostly like this (I picked at random folio 85v from the NT portion):

Image

Much of the codex is nearly white. Of course, there are also darker, blotched, or yellow pages, some are bleached out, some suffer from heavy ink corrosion, etc.
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Overall, the Alexandrinus-Sinaticius comparison is important. Let's start with the pic and then overall condition.

You do have to remember that Sinaiticus standardized their picture taking, and assigned numbers for many features. Sometimes pics are not designed to simply give our visual representation. You have raised a good issue, and our team wants to do more on the Alexandrinus colour question. Let's start here.

You can see we use the British Library pic here:

Parchment Colour - Comparison with Other Manuscripts
http://www.sinaiticus.net/other%20mss.html

You can bring down the two pics to make them side-by-side with the CFA 1844 Leipzig pic.
The one on the right is the whitest of all the comparisons, and only modestly darker than the CFA.

=====================

However, there is a rub.
Let's go the end of Luke in the British Library, nice and white.

British Library - Alexandrinus - description
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDispla ... S_1_D_VIII

British Library - Alexandrinus - End of Luke
Folio 41v from the Codex Alexandrinus contains the end of the Gospel of Luke with the decorative tailpiece found at the end of each book
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... iii_fs001r

Here I am using the actual .png saved and then uploaded, under fair use. The colour is very similar to what you have given us above, which presumably sources from the British Library online, the same collection? (Please, as I said, we appreciate all pics being clearly sourced.)
Attachments
BL end of Luke.png
BL end of Luke.png (582.8 KiB) Viewed 5804 times
Last edited by Steven Avery on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Now, we do have another pic of that same page. It is used in Wikipedia, and then over here.
http://365bibles.blogspot.com/2011/02/c ... rinus.html
From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus
Info
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... -_Luke.jpg

Tracking down the source with a little google work we go to a nice album
https://www.pinterest.com/VanDiemensLand/early-bibles/

Which leads us to what may be the source, a Portuguese page:

Paulo Nunes Heitlinger - Lisbon
http://tipografos.net/escrita/CodeAlexandrinusFol65.jpg

You will notice the colour is very different than the British Library page.

Wait, though, the Paulo picture has a British Library watermark, and is a very different shade than the yellow one (our photography analysis section is working on this question.) It is fuzzier, and may be from a film camera.

Clearly, there is a question here. Until a bit more research is done, we can not take the whiteness of Alexandrinus in the British Library album as realistic. However, we will attempt to do our due diligence on all these ends. However, for tonight on the pic, es suficiente.

Next, reading about the Sinaticius-Alexandrinus comparisons. After we give the third pic for comparison.

Steven
Attachments
Alexandrinus tipografosnet.jpg
Alexandrinus tipografosnet.jpg (39.06 KiB) Viewed 5802 times
Last edited by Steven Avery on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

The Wikipedia and tiografos pics look the same, with the watermark for the British Library.

This is #3
http://365bibles.blogspot.com/2011/02/c ... rinus.html
Attachments
365bibles.jpg
365bibles.jpg (68.97 KiB) Viewed 5800 times
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Steven Avery »

Codex Alexandrinus

"the vellum has fallen into holes in many places, and since the ink peels off for very age whensoever a leaf is touched a little roughly, no one is allowed to handle the manuscript except for good reasons." - Scrivener

Alexandrinus ... the vellum itself now has a:
"limp, dead appearance in marked contrast to the vellum of the Codex Sinaiticus" - Skeat and Milne, The Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus:With Seven Illustrations, 1955 p. 37

"The vellum of this venerable manuscript has fallen into holes in places, and the ink will crumble from it at a rough touch." - George Washington Dean
https://books.google.com/books?id=pAE8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA313

"its ink is slowly eating through some of its pages and turning them into lacework." - William Andrew Smith
https://books.google.com/books?id=pWHPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA1

======================

There is nothing like the suppleness of Sinaiticus.
Nor is there the super-ink.
Nor the whiteness of the Leipzig CFA.

comparison with Codex Alexandrinus - why not?
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthread.php?p=741
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

Steven Avery wrote:Here I am using the actual .png saved and then uploaded, under fair use. The colour is very similar to what you have given us above, which presumably sources from the British Library online, the same collection? (Please, as I said, we appreciate all pics being clearly sourced.)
Same source, and as I said, the detail shot was from folio 85 verso.

You generally cannot judge color from photos where you cannot see the background. In the BL online version, you can see the color of the white table the book is resting on in the background for comparison. You need to use pics with background for the yellow photographs, too. For example, here's the same page that you use (end of gLuke) in the version of Alexandrinus you can download on archive.org on this page (the pdf), which bears the csntm.org watermark.

Image

Here you can see that the yellow image has a yellow background table, which means the colors are not correct. I can't tell you whether these are photographs that were taken without flash to preserve the document or whether it was done to improve readability, but there it is. Just from these images, I would conclude that the white images come closer to the original. You can also come to this conclusion when you look at the ink color.
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augusta

Post by Ulan »

Steven Avery wrote:"The vellum of this venerable manuscript has fallen into holes in places, and the ink will crumble from it at a rough touch." - George Washington Dean
https://books.google.com/books?id=pAE8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA313

"its ink is slowly eating through some of its pages and turning them into lacework." - William Andrew Smith
https://books.google.com/books?id=pWHPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA1
You can find the pages these quotes describe near the end of the manuscript. There ink rot and maybe water have rendered the manuscript all but unreadable.
Post Reply