Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
MattMorales
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by MattMorales »

maryhelena wrote:
perseusomega9 wrote:
MattMorales wrote:Just for argument's sake: Would the crucifixion of Jesus in the firmament necessarily need to correspond to the crucifixion of a person on earth? Could it not correspond to the slaughter of Yahweh's "son," Israel, with the destruction of the temple?
Or similar to Hebrews where Christ's sacrifice is the Heavenly Sacrifice and animal sacrifices are the earthly?
Come now - what is the symbol of Christianity - is it not a man on a cross?
I did not necessarily say it was a good argument. Besides, then we have to late-date all the Pauline epistles (even the core message of "Christ crucified") and all sorts of problems arise. Oh no, I said arise! :D
junego
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by junego »

perseusomega9 wrote:
MattMorales wrote:Just for argument's sake: Would the crucifixion of Jesus in the firmament necessarily need to correspond to the crucifixion of a person on earth? Could it not correspond to the slaughter of Yahweh's "son," Israel, with the destruction of the temple?
Or similar to Hebrews where Christ's sacrifice is the Heavenly Sacrifice and animal sacrifices are the earthly?
Yeah, I think Hebrews captures the flavor or feel of (at least some of) early Christian theological theory. In this case Christ is not in the decadent realm of decay of the lowest heaven or realm where there is imperfection. That's why his blood offering is considered perfect so is superior to and replaces the animal blood offerings of the Temple. At least that's what I've gleaned from my limited reading on the subject.

My admittedly non-expert understanding of middle Platonism and the Doherty-Carrier hypothesis is that the only place ANYTHING could die or decay would be in the realm "under the moon" where the imperfect copies of what exists in the higher heavens are extant. So there could NOT be a crucification/death in any of the higher heavens; that's why the christ had to descend to the realm ruled by Satan (which could be all the way to earth's surface, I guess) to undergo his passion to defeat death or salvation of souls or create a new paradise or whatever the goal was.

Obviously the Platonic worldview doesn't make a lot of sense to our 21st century scientific-oriented culture.

So ISTM McGrath's "gotcha" just doesn't fit current understanding of the worldview of 1st century Roman Empire even if it's filtered through a Jewish sect.
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maryhelena
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena »

junego wrote: <snip>

So ISTM McGrath's "gotcha" just doesn't fit current understanding of the worldview of 1st century Roman Empire even if it's filtered through a Jewish sect.
This is McGrath's "gotcha" argument against the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory.

McGrath:
There is, however, a common element of ancient thought which has important implications for the understanding of Ascension of Isaiah. In 7:10 we read, “And as above, so also on earth, for the likeness of what (is) in the firmament is here on earth.” As Carrier notes, “the narrative goes out of its way to explain that the firmament contains copies of everything on earth.”[23] And yet, presumably because of his aim to present a case for mythicism, Carrier does not discuss the natural implication of this: that even if the celestial Beloved only descended as far as the firmament, and was crucified there by demons, this would mirror some corresponding occurrence on earth.

my bolding

...a common element of ancient thought which has important implications for the understanding of Ascension of Isaiah. In 7:10 we read, “And as above, so also on earth, for the likeness of what (is) in the firmament is here on earth.

I don't see that McGrath is misrepresenting ancient thought here......
What I do see is that McGrath needs to follow through on this himself. i.e. if he upholds such a view, that the likeness of what is in the firmament is mirrored on earth - then he can't go on to say, which he has done in his article, that Carrier's reading of the text "seems to me unlikely"..

Carrier, of course, likewise, can't choose a heavenly crucifixion and deny an earthly crucifixion. Both crucifixion needs to be addressed.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
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MattMorales
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by MattMorales »

perseusomega9 wrote:
MattMorales wrote:Just for argument's sake: Would the crucifixion of Jesus in the firmament necessarily need to correspond to the crucifixion of a person on earth? Could it not correspond to the slaughter of Yahweh's "son," Israel, with the destruction of the temple?
Or similar to Hebrews where Christ's sacrifice is the Heavenly Sacrifice and animal sacrifices are the earthly?
I've never read Hebrews that way. While the epistle does emphasize the heavenly temple and Christ as heavenly high priest, it seems that it is his earthly sacrifice (outside the city) which qualifies him for the job. Either way, Christ being sacrificed in Yahweh's celestial temple (which I think goes against Jewish belief at the time) would be a different idea than Christ dying in the firmament.
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maryhelena
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena »

MattMorales wrote:
perseusomega9 wrote:
MattMorales wrote:Just for argument's sake: Would the crucifixion of Jesus in the firmament necessarily need to correspond to the crucifixion of a person on earth? Could it not correspond to the slaughter of Yahweh's "son," Israel, with the destruction of the temple?
Or similar to Hebrews where Christ's sacrifice is the Heavenly Sacrifice and animal sacrifices are the earthly?
I've never read Hebrews that way. While the epistle does emphasize the heavenly temple and Christ as heavenly high priest, it seems that it is his earthly sacrifice (outside the city) which qualifies him for the job. Either way, Christ being sacrificed in Yahweh's celestial temple (which I think goes against Jewish belief at the time) would be a different idea than Christ dying in the firmament.
It's only the celestial, heavenly, sacrifice/crucifixion, that has 'salvation' value. There is no value whatsoever in the sacrifice/crucifixion of a flesh and blood man. A flesh and blood crucifixion/sacrifice is an abomination, a tragedy.

Richard Dawkins: Among all the ideas ever to occur to a nasty human mind (Paul’s of course), the Christian “atonement” would win a prize for pointless futility as well as moral depravity.

That a flesh and blood crucifixion was relevant to the gospel writers, in the creation of their Jesus story, is not the same thing as saying that a flesh and blood crucifixion, execution by the Romans, had any salvation value. It was by changing context, from the earthly to the heavenly, that the NT writers found a way to find value in a 'crucifixion'. Yes, the Jerusalem above reflects the Jerusalem below - but the very different contexts requires very different outcomes. Life, death and rebirth 'works' in a heavenly, intellectual context. It does not work in a flesh and blood context.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
PhilosopherJay
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi maryhelena,

Why not a physical crucifixion in heaven and a metaphorical crucifixion on Earth?
Couldn't I, as a good pagan, say that John Lennon was crucified by the NRA in the United States the way Zeus crucified Prometheus?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY-ftTvsC7M or the San Francisco Giants crucified the Kansas City Royals like Ereshkigal crucified Innana?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin


maryhelena wrote:
junego wrote: <snip>

So ISTM McGrath's "gotcha" just doesn't fit current understanding of the worldview of 1st century Roman Empire even if it's filtered through a Jewish sect.
This is McGrath's "gotcha" argument against the Carrier-Doherty mythicist theory.

McGrath:
There is, however, a common element of ancient thought which has important implications for the understanding of Ascension of Isaiah. In 7:10 we read, “And as above, so also on earth, for the likeness of what (is) in the firmament is here on earth.” As Carrier notes, “the narrative goes out of its way to explain that the firmament contains copies of everything on earth.”[23] And yet, presumably because of his aim to present a case for mythicism, Carrier does not discuss the natural implication of this: that even if the celestial Beloved only descended as far as the firmament, and was crucified there by demons, this would mirror some corresponding occurrence on earth.

my bolding

...a common element of ancient thought which has important implications for the understanding of Ascension of Isaiah. In 7:10 we read, “And as above, so also on earth, for the likeness of what (is) in the firmament is here on earth.

I don't see that McGrath is misrepresenting ancient thought here......
What I do see is that McGrath needs to follow through on this himself. i.e. if he upholds such a view, that the likeness of what is in the firmament is mirrored on earth - then he can't go on to say, which he has done in his article, that Carrier's reading of the text "seems to me unlikely"..

Carrier, of course, likewise, can't choose a heavenly crucifixion and deny an earthly crucifixion. Both crucifixion needs to be addressed.
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maryhelena
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi maryhelena,

Why not a physical crucifixion in heaven and a metaphorical crucifixion on Earth?

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
A physical crucifixion in heaven? Jay, how on earth could one possible demonstrate that? Mind games are all very well but they don't offer any means of validating them.... ;)

A metaphorical crucifixion on Earth? What would be the point - two imaginary scenarios......

Jay, one thing about the Jesus historicists - they won't surrender anytime soon to mythicists mind games. Indeed, there is no historical gospel Jesus, of whatever variant it's proposers dream up - but no gospel Jesus does not equate to no historical relevance to the gospel story. Mind games, mythical ideas, are no substitute for the reality of the social/political context in which we function - and upon which the gospel writers drew material for their story.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Charles Wilson
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Charles Wilson »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Why not a physical crucifixion in heaven and a metaphorical crucifixion on Earth?
Josephus, Wars..., 7, 5, 6 and 7 (In Parts):

6. Now the last part of this pompous show was at the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, whither when they were come, they stood still; for it was the Romans' ancient custom to stay till somebody brought the news that the general of the enemy was slain. This general was Simon, the son of Gioras, who had then been led in this triumph among the captives; a rope had also been put upon his head, and he had been drawn into a proper place in the forum, and had withal been tormented by those that drew him along; and the law of the Romans required that malefactors condemned to die should be slain there. Accordingly, when it was related that there was an end of him, and all the people had set up a shout for joy, they then began to offer those sacrifices which they had consecrated, in the prayers used in such solemnities; which when they had finished, they went away to the palace...

7. After these triumphs were over, and after the affairs of the Romans were settled on the surest foundations, Vespasian resolved to build a temple to Peace, which was finished in so short a time, and in so glorious a manner, as was beyond all human expectation and opinion: for he having now by Providence a vast quantity of wealth, besides what he had formerly gained in his other exploits, he had this temple adorned with pictures and statues; for in this temple were collected and deposited all such rarities as men aforetime used to wander all over the habitable world to see, when they had a desire to see one of them after another; he also laid up therein those golden vessels and instruments that were taken out of the Jewish temple, as ensigns of his glory. But still he gave order that they should lay up their Law, and the purple veils of the holy place, in the royal palace itself, and keep them there.

See also the Death of Vitellius, who was marched through Rome with a noose around his head and at times even a dagger held under his chin.
"Where is Heaven?" One very illuminating POV would be to see ROME as Heaven. There, at the End of Troubles, is a Triumph to Celebrate the New Empire.

Revelation 21: 22 (RSV):

[22] And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

A physical crucifixion in Heaven and a metaphorical crucifixion on Earth is not so far out when the Symbolism is Transvalued. " 'mmr-Yah" <=> "Lord" and "Immar" => "Immer" => "Lamb".

Not so far out at all.

CW
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Peter Kirby »

(McGrath, my emphasis)
maryhelena wrote:
There is, however, a common element of ancient thought which has important implications for the understanding of Ascension of Isaiah. In 7:10 we read, “And as above, so also on earth, for the likeness of what (is) in the firmament is here on earth.” As Carrier notes, “the narrative goes out of its way to explain that the firmament contains copies of everything on earth.”[23] And yet, presumably because of his aim to present a case for mythicism, Carrier does not discuss the natural implication of this: that even if the celestial Beloved only descended as far as the firmament, and was crucified there by demons, this would mirror some corresponding occurrence on earth.

It just occurs to me, reading through this thread, that Christian "Middle Platonism" (or whatever you want to call it) has been hiding in plain sight this entire time, for thousands of years, recited billions and billions of times.

I'm referring, of course, to the Lord's Prayer.

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

You don't have to go poking around in obscure texts like the Ascension of Isaiah to find this...
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Peter Kirby »

So the question becomes... where on earth did the counterpart to the heavenly crucifixion take place? Since even McGrath is now arguing that there were two parallel crucifixions in early theology, in heaven and on earth.

It could be Golgotha, on a hill outside Jerusalem, but Paul doesn't say that.
(Paul could have thought that, of course, without saying it; there is no hard proof either way.)

But there are some things that Paul (or whoever the author is...) does say that I am obliged to point out.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Romans 6:3
Don’t you know that all who share in Christ Jesus by being baptized also share in his death?

Colossians 2:12 (deutero Pauline)
And when you were baptized, it was the same as being buried with Christ. Then you were raised to life because you had faith in the power of God, who raised Christ from death.

Not by Paul, Hebrews 6:6 says that apostates attempting to return to the fold seek to "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh":

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I'm not saying you have to interpret these lines any particular way. But I am saying that a distinct plausibility is there, that the parallelism of heaven and earth regarding the crucifixion isn't what McGrath is assuming that it is. If that premise can't be more than one plausible assumption, the rebuttal isn't as strong as it could be.

(Just saw his post... it seems that PhilosopherJay isn't that far off.)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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