Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by John T »

perseusomega9 wrote:I haven't read Carrier's book, but I wouldn't be surprised to find McGrath has missed important/misrepresented clues in Carrier's book.
That seems to be the standard excuse from the Carrier fan club.

Cognitive Dissonance: Rejection of facts that is inconsistent with one's own false beliefs.

Gnosticism is to early Christianity as astrology is to astronomy.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by GakuseiDon »

You're a tool, John T. I've reported your post.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by John T »

Peter Kirby wrote:But the best possible case could put the critics on their heels. It could show that Tacitus wrote about Jesus and that this is more likely if Jesus were historical. It could revive the Josephus argument. It could pull the rug on attempts to find Christians without a belief in a historical Christ crucified under Pilate. Most importantly, it could show that the Gospels make the most sense if they are about a historical person. But somebody needs to do the hard work to make that best possible case.
I thought Bart Ehrman already did that in: "Did Jesus Exist?".
If not, just what is the accepted academic standard for atheists/mythicists in proving that someone in history actually lived?

Let me give a hypothetical.

Suppose some grave-robbing Bedouin in the Qumran region removed a scroll or grave marker that clearly stated that the deceased was one of the original 12 disciples of Jesus. Then, assuming carbon-dating and paleography testing concurred with the 1st century, would that do it?

Do you think Carrier would change his mind?

My point is, no matter what evidence you come up with, atheists/mythicists can not be convinced of something they worked so hard to disprove.
Hence the appropriate charge of cognitive dissonance.

Which also explains the call for censorship by GakuseiDon.


Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller »

Nothing's wrong with it. It's one of the best.
However it is, like many other bodies of work, more investigative than judicial.
In other words, you're brilliant at chasing leads, but that doesn't mean we've been able to shut the case thanks to your work. We're not even properly in order to file the brief with the court and press charges. See what I mean with the analogy? We need something laser-focused on producing conviction on the main proposition, that there was a historical Jesus of Nazareth.
Thanks, Peter. But due to the nature of the evidence, and the fact Christianity started more than 19 centuries ago, it would be impossible to make a sure judicial case. That's why I named my website "Jesus, a historical reconstruction" (notice the "a"), taking in account all pertinent elements which would affect a historical (or ahistorical) Jesus.
I also note that in the judiciary, some innocents get condemned and guilty ones get free. That's not foul proof.
Ultimately, it depends a lot on where you set the threshold for innocent or guilty, true or false.
What I am dreaming about: that a group of well educated people, all of them never a follower of Abrahamic religions, would look at all the reconstructions of the beginning of Christianity and decide which one is the most probable and better evidenced: I think I would come on top.
If you want to see laser-focused arguments in favor of a historical Jesus and others against an ahistorical Jesus, my new blog is the place to go:
http://historical-jesus.info/blog.html

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Diogenes the Cynic
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:59 pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

Peter Kirby wrote:Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

You don't have to go poking around in obscure texts like the Ascension of Isaiah to find this...
I've noticed this for a long time as well. It also includes the corresponding "forgiveness" lines ("forgives us our debts as we forgive those indebted to us). A lot of the Q sayings are rife with this kind of language. Forgive and you will be forgiven, You will be judged as you judge others, etc.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to maryhelena,
Much better option for the Jesus historicists is to drop the *historical* and simply run with the assumption that there was a flesh and blood Jesus in the gospel story. Argue that this assumption is a more plausible assumption than the alternative. Once *historical* enters the debate the Jesus historicists have lost their case. There simply is no irrefutable evidence for a claim of historicity.
"historical" has a range of meanings. One extreme one would be "historic". I do not think Jesus was historic, that is, on his own and directly, creating a new religion, through some charismatic attributes or special talent.
"My definition for 'historical' in "historical Jesus" is 'having lived in the past', based on the Collins English Dictionary (Canadian Edition), "belonging to past", and with 'Jesus' being the name of the man credited to have started Christianity." (quoted from the intro page of my website: http://historical-jesus.info/).
I see Jesus' role in the beginning of Christianity as was Rosa Parks for the Civil Rights Movement. Again from the same webpage:
"By a simple act (remaining seated in a bus, then arrested), Rosa Parks (a humble seamstress then) provided the spark which gave birth to the momentous modern Civil Rights Movement, led by others from the start. Decades later, she was considered its "Mother" and revered as an icon, despite the fact she withdrew from it early on."

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena »

Bernard Muller wrote:to maryhelena,
Much better option for the Jesus historicists is to drop the *historical* and simply run with the assumption that there was a flesh and blood Jesus in the gospel story. Argue that this assumption is a more plausible assumption than the alternative. Once *historical* enters the debate the Jesus historicists have lost their case. There simply is no irrefutable evidence for a claim of historicity.
"historical" have a range of meanings. One extreme one would be "historic". I do not think Jesus was historic, that is, on his own and directly, creating a new religion, through some charismatic attributes or special talent.
"My definition for 'historical' in "historical Jesus" is 'having lived in the past', based on the Collins English Dictionary (Canadian Edition), "belonging to past", and with 'Jesus' being the name of the man credited to have started Christianity." (quoted from the intro page of my website: http://historical-jesus.info/).
I see Jesus' role in the beginning of Christianity as was Rosa Parks for the Civil Rights Movement. Again from the same webpage:
"By a simple act (remaining seated in a bus, then arrested), Rosa Parks (a humble seamstress then) provided the spark which gave birth to the momentous modern Civil Rights Movement, led by others from the start. Decades later, she was considered its "Mother" and revered as an icon, despite the fact she withdrew from it early on."

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard, don't waste your time - I'm not interested in reading any arguments attempting to support the historical Jesus assumption. The very idea is ridiculous. I won't give it the time of day....
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Diogenes the Cynic
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:59 pm
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

(Galatians 1:15-16)
But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, 16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles.

(Galatians 1:20)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Galatians 5:24):
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

(Galatians 6:14)
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

(Galatians 6:17)
for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

(Romans 6:3-8)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


Do I see a mirror?
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:(Galatians 1:15-16)
But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, 16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles.

(Galatians 1:20)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Galatians 5:24):
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

(Galatians 6:14)
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

(Galatians 6:17)
for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

(Romans 6:3-8)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.


Do I see a mirror?
Yes, if you add in Galatians 3:1

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"

I'll repost comments from earlier post.
========================

If christ lives in people then *christ* is some aspect of our human nature - not some visitation from some celestial, outer-space realm. Ancient people personified aspects of the world around them. Pauline theology/philosophy has personified an aspect of our human nature - our mind, our intellectual capacity. Our mind has it's intellectual 'furniture' just as our physical world has it's own 'furniture'. Just as flesh and blood can be crucified in our physical world - so, likewise, in our intellectual world, ideas can be 'crucified', killed off, when past their sell by date. Just as we can see a physical chair, so too can we picture a chair in our mind. One is real, the other imagined. Both reflect the other. Neither is a substitute for the other.

Thus, re Paul, christians can be "crucified with Christ" and at the same time "before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?". So, two types of crucifixions here. 1)The crucifixion within, the crucifixion that takes place in 'heaven', in our intellectual capacity. 2) The crucifixion that happened before the eyes of the christians. One unseen, in the heavens, in the mind, the other public for all to see.

It was the public crucifixion, execution, that, as it were, set the ball rolling. From that tragedy a new theological/philosophical development arose. 'Salvation' was not physical but intellectual. Sure, this new theology/philosophy was dressed up in the world view of that time. Strip away the fancy dress and what is left was way ahead of it's time: That in order to move forward intellectually it is necessary to 'crucify' outdated mental images. Intellectual evolution is not an automatic process - it requires conscious deliberate action - it requires intellectual 'warfare'.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by MrMacSon »

maryhelena wrote:Yes, if you add in Galatians 3:1

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?"
Yes, a sign of competing theologies; and merely assertions that "Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth .. [and] .. crucified among you"
Post Reply