Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:31 pm

When Carrier says "the firmament contains copies of everything on earth"
Actually, in the Ascension of Isaiah, it looks the duplication is only about where the angels of Satan are fighting each other: firmament and earth. See the pertinent verses:
7:9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.
7:10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.
I do not think it was the author's intention to indicate that everything on earth had copies in the firmament.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:55 pm

Probably best at this point that we go over Carrier's reasons for the need to reconstruct an earlier version of the S/L texts, to see how strong they are. Anyone willing to do this? I'm happy to do this, but won't have time to get to it for a few days. (Probably best to be done by someone who supports Carrier on this point also, to avoid charges of misrepresentation.)
I did my own reconstruction or rather I looked at R.H. Charles' study from the ancient copies.
Charles (a Christian) did not want to see what I saw (which is very obvious: Christian interpolations were made on two sets of copies, in such a way, when interpolation bits appear in one set, they do not show on the other set and vice versa). Charles, instead, did his reconstruction by including all the Christian interpolations, which is the basis of Carrier's reconstruction, except that Carrier removed the mini gospel (Jesus on earth).
http://historical-jesus.info/100.html

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:32 pm

I guess I'm hoping for something more. We need the historicity case to be made as strongly as it can, hopefully someday soon.
It really hurts. I wonder if I exist. I wonder if my all encompassing website on the matter is visible.
What's wrong with my case? I have the feeling my work is an elephant in the room.
http://historical-jesus.info/
http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by GakuseiDon » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:19 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
When Carrier says "the firmament contains copies of everything on earth"
Actually, in the Ascension of Isaiah, it looks the duplication is only about where the angels of Satan are fighting each other: firmament and earth. See the pertinent verses:
7:9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.
7:10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.
I do not think it was the author's intention to indicate that everything on earth had copies in the firmament.
Yes, I think that also. To me, it's unlikely that is was supposed to be a metaphysical statement setting up a link between the earth and the firmament. The author was saying that there was great fighting and envy in the firmament, just like there is envy and fighting on earth. Below shows the statements just after the key sentence:
  • 9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.
    10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here ont he earth.
    11. And I said unto the angel (who was with me): "(What is this war and) what is this envying?"
    12. And he said unto me: "So has it been since this world was made until now, and this war (will continue) till He, whom thou shalt see will come and destroy him."
Yet Carrier keeps coming back to that concept throughout his book. On page 45:
  • ... the narrative goes out of its way to explain that the firmament contains copies of everything on earth...
But the narrative doesn't say "copies of everything on earth". It only has "as above so on earth", which as I argue only relates to the warring and envying that Isaiah noticed.

Then Carrier says something remarkable. On page 194 (my bolding):
  • There are even versions of earthly things in the firmament, as we learn in the Ascension of Isaiah 7.10, which says, 'as it is above, so is it also on the earth, for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is also on the earth'. Although those things would not be the perfect models, which resided only in the perfect heavens above, but half-corrupt imitations, in between the models above and their earthly copies below.
I have never heard of "half-corrupt imitations" before. The concept sounds quite out of place for the time. I'm not aware of any literature expressing some kind of Platonic-style relationship between the earth and the firmament, both existing in the realm of corruption! Between Earth and the true heavens (like Jerusalem on earth vs heavenly Jerusalem), yes. But not between Earth and the firmament. And "half-corrupt" models in the firmament, no less! Quite bizarre! Carrier does give the following cites for this, which seem to be counter-apologetics books:

1. Babinski, 'Cosmology', in Christian Delusion (ed. Loftus)
2. Jaco Gericke, "Can God Exist if Yahweh Doesn't? ', in End of Christianity (ed. Loftus), pp. 131-54 (esp pp. 144-49)

I have "Christian Delusion", but skimming through Babinski's section (actually called 'The Cosmology of the Bible' in my book) I can't see a reference to firmament "half-corrupt imitations". I'll go through more carefully when I get time. I don't have "End of Christianity" so can't check that. I'll try Google Books when I get a chance. (If anyone else with those books can confirm whether there is support or not for "half-corrupt imitations" in the firmament, it would be great if you let us know.)

Lots of homework to do!
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse

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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:29 pm

Gakuseidon,
"I don't have "End of Christianity" so can't check that. I'll try Google Books when I get a chance. (If anyone else with those books can confirm whether there is support or not for "half-corrupt imitations" in the firmament, it would be great if you let us know.)
The whole text of Jaco Gericke, "Can God Exist if Yahweh Doesn't? ', in End of Christianity (ed. Loftus), pp. 131-54 (esp pp. 144-49) is available here:
https://www.academia.edu/2442558/Can_Go ... weh_doesnt (but with no pagination).

Something possibly relevant in it:
Yahweh’s world
A third and final absurd conception in the Old Testament was already hinted at above,i.e., the idea that the entire cosmos is a monarchy and that Yahweh’s eternal divine abode in the skies operates like a kingdom (cf. Deut 32:8-9; 1 Sam 8:7; Dan 6:27; etc.). Yahweh’s own abode was believed to be a palace in which the deity himself sits on a throne (cf. Ps 11:4; etc.). A favourite form of transportation for the god is horse-drawn chariots (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11-12, 6:17; Zech 6:1-8; etc.). Yahweh also needs an army whose weapon of choice is the sword (cf. Gen 3:22f.; 32:1-2; Josh 5:13-15; 2 Sam24:16, 27; etc.). Yahweh is wise but not omniscient and makes use of councillors (cf. 1Kgs 22:20-23; Is 6:3; Jer 23:18; Ps 82:1, 89:5; Job 1:6; etc.) and intelligence services that spy on the subjects in order to ascertain their loyalty (cf. Job 1-2; Zech 3; 1 Chron 21; etc.). The ram’s horn was a popular musical instrument in YHWH’s abode (cf. Ex 19:16) and the inhabitants of heaven eat bread and dress in pure white linen (cf. Ps78:25; Ezek 9:2; Dan 10:5; etc.). Yahweh even engages in writing on scrolls (cf. the “book” [of life] in Ex 32:32; Pss 69:29, 139:16; Dan 7:10; 10:21; etc.).
17
and that:
To understand the idea behind this cosmography, again think of human society, or the lay-out of any large modern city. The divine abode was simply considered the “up-town” of the cosmos – the palace or fortress on the hill. The deity
lives “up there” separate from humans because the religious system teaches a cosmic Apartheid between gods and humans – when you are a god you don’t mix with the riffraff too often and only appear among them rarely. That is the only reason why the divine appeared and spoke so seldom to humans (nothing more). And when he did come down he had accommodation ready and waiting – his seven-star private palace,i.e., the temple, the word for which in Hebrew is the same as the word for palace and which was the nice cool and quiet house of God where a large staff fed him with wine, animal fat, and oiled vegetables twice a day and lavished him with gifts (the real motive for sacrifices).
The idea of Yahweh’s “food” is not uncommon in the text (see Ezek 44:7, and Leviticus).
That's it, I read the whole thing.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by andrewcriddle » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:44 pm

Peter Kirby wrote:
It just occurs to me, reading through this thread, that Christian "Middle Platonism" (or whatever you want to call it) has been hiding in plain sight this entire time, for thousands of years, recited billions and billions of times.

I'm referring, of course, to the Lord's Prayer.

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

You don't have to go poking around in obscure texts like the Ascension of Isaiah to find this...
IMO the petition in the Lord's prayer implies that God's will is already being done in Heaven (but not on Earth) and prays that God's will should not only be done in Heaven but on Earth as well.

i.e. the point is ethical; what happens in Heaven should happen on Earth. It is not the metaphysical; claim that what happens in Heaven necessarily has a reflection on Earth.

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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Leucius Charinus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:56 pm

andrewcriddle wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:
It just occurs to me, reading through this thread, that Christian "Middle Platonism" (or whatever you want to call it) has been hiding in plain sight this entire time, for thousands of years, recited billions and billions of times.

I'm referring, of course, to the Lord's Prayer.

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

You don't have to go poking around in obscure texts like the Ascension of Isaiah to find this...
IMO the petition in the Lord's prayer implies that God's will is already being done in Heaven (but not on Earth) and prays that God's will should not only be done in Heaven but on Earth as well.

i.e. the point is ethical; what happens in Heaven should happen on Earth. It is not the metaphysical; claim that what happens in Heaven necessarily has a reflection on Earth.
And yet the metaphysical claim is obviously true in the sense that our terrestrial environment (Earth) is entirely dependent upon the cosmic environment for sunshine (the sun for example) for its physical biological life. The moon and sun influence the tides etc. The ancients observed these things IMO. The planets and their seven heavens were a result of natural scientific observations over many generations. So I find it metaphysical as well in a naturalistic way.

Does the following Gospel of Thomas reference get any airplay in the "Jesus died in outer space" debate?

  • "the kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth but men do not see it"
[/i][/b]



Be well,


LC
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A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]

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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:58 pm

Peter Kirby wrote:(McGrath, my emphasis)
maryhelena wrote:
There is, however, a common element of ancient thought which has important implications for the understanding of Ascension of Isaiah. In 7:10 we read, “And as above, so also on earth, for the likeness of what (is) in the firmament is here on earth.” As Carrier notes, “the narrative goes out of its way to explain that the firmament contains copies of everything on earth.”[23] And yet, presumably because of his aim to present a case for mythicism, Carrier does not discuss the natural implication of this: that even if the celestial Beloved only descended as far as the firmament, and was crucified there by demons, this would mirror some corresponding occurrence on earth.

It just occurs to me, reading through this thread, that Christian "Middle Platonism" (or whatever you want to call it) has been hiding in plain sight this entire time, for thousands of years, recited billions and billions of times.

I'm referring, of course, to the Lord's Prayer.

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

You don't have to go poking around in obscure texts like the Ascension of Isaiah to find this...
Nice, in plain view all along...which is simply to say that there is an interconnected relationship between earth and heaven. How we understand what that relationship is and how it works depends a lot on what we understand *heaven* to be.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by maryhelena » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:31 am

Peter Kirby wrote:So the question becomes... where on earth did the counterpart to the heavenly crucifixion take place? Since even McGrath is now arguing that there were two parallel crucifixions in early theology, in heaven and on earth.

It could be Golgotha, on a hill outside Jerusalem, but Paul doesn't say that.
(Paul could have thought that, of course, without saying it; there is no hard proof either way.)

But there are some things that Paul (or whoever the author is...) does say that I am obliged to point out.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Romans 6:3
Don’t you know that all who share in Christ Jesus by being baptized also share in his death?

Colossians 2:12 (deutero Pauline)
And when you were baptized, it was the same as being buried with Christ. Then you were raised to life because you had faith in the power of God, who raised Christ from death.

Not by Paul, Hebrews 6:6 says that apostates attempting to return to the fold seek to "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh":

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I'm not saying you have to interpret these lines any particular way. But I am saying that a distinct plausibility is there, that the parallelism of heaven and earth regarding the crucifixion isn't what McGrath is assuming that it is. If that premise can't be more than one plausible assumption, the rebuttal isn't as strong as it could be.

(Just saw his post... it seems that PhilosopherJay isn't that far off.)
If christ lives in people then *christ* is some aspect of our human nature - not some visitation from some celestial, outer-space realm. Ancient people personified aspects of the world around them. Pauline theology/philosophy has personified an aspect of our human nature - our mind, our intellectual capacity. Our mind has it's intellectual 'furniture' just as our physical world has it's own 'furniture'. Just as flesh and blood can be crucified in our physical world - so, likewise, in our intellectual world, ideas can be 'crucified', killed off, when past their sell by date. Just as we can see a physical chair, so too can we picture a chair in our mind. One is real, the other imagined. Both reflect the other. Neither is a substitute for the other.

Thus, re Paul, christians can be "crucified with Christ" and at the same time "before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?". So, two types of crucifixions here. 1)The crucifixion within, the crucifixion that takes place in 'heaven', in our intellectual capacity. 2) The crucifixion that happened before the eyes of the christians. One unseen, in the heavens, in the mind, the other public for all to see.

It was the public crucifixion, execution, that, as it were, set the ball rolling. From that tragedy a new theological/philosophical development arose. 'Salvation' was not physical but intellectual. Sure, this new theology/philosophy was dressed up in the world view of that time. Strip away the fancy dress and what is left was way ahead of it's time: That in order to move forward intellectually it is necessary to 'crucify' outdated mental images. Intellectual evolution is not an automatic process - it requires conscious deliberate action - it requires intellectual 'warfare'.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats

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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Leucius Charinus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:32 am

maryhelena wrote:Nice, in plain view all along...which is simply to say that there is an interconnected relationship between earth and heaven. How we understand what that relationship is and how it works depends a lot on what we understand *heaven* to be.
In the ancient literature at the basis of this debate the dominant (50% of cases) model was a seven geo-concentric Ptolemaic spheres model of ancient "Outer Space".
DATA: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=749

In which level of outer space did Jesus die? Do we know?

Be well,


LC
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]

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