Paul and the Gospel traditions

[Thomas R]

"Wells and others have insisted that it is just inexplicable, on the usual understanding of a historical Jesus, why the epistles never quote him."

The Christ myth theory by Robert Price, p.35

What is truly inexplicable is how people who call themselves scholars never bothered to read the source before making arguments from its supposed silence.

Two claims that have now become common place among atheist critics of Christianity are that "Paul knew nothing of the Gospel traditions" and that "Paul knew nothing of a historical Christ".

The letters of Paul say otherwise:

(Quotes are from David Bentley Hart's literal translation)

Paul, a slave of the Anointed One Jesus, called an Apostle, having been set apart for God’s good tidings, Which he promised in advance through his prophets in sacred writings Concerning his Son—born from David’s seed according to the flesh, Marked out by resurrection of the dead as God’s Son in power according to a spirit of holiness—Jesus the Anointed, our Lord

Romans 1:1

Being Born from David's seed "according to the flesh" is to be born in history.


So now: no condemnation for those in the Anointed One, Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in the Anointed One Jesus freed you from the law of sin and death. For the thing that is impossible for the Law, in which it was weak on account of the flesh—God, having sent his own Son in a semblance of the flesh of sin, also (as regards sin) condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 8:1

The "flesh of sin" is here on earth and not in the heavens somewhere.


"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for whoever loves the other fulfills the Law. For “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” along with every other commandment whatsoever, are summed up in this saying: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 13:8


This is a clear paraphrase of gospel verses with a direct quote from Jesus himself:

He says to him,“Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, Honor father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 19:18


“Teacher, what is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your reason. This is the great and first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the prophets depend upon these two commandments.”

Matthew 22:36


Jesus answered: “The first is: ‘Hear, Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord, And you shall love the Lord your God out of your whole
heart and out of your whole soul and out of your whole reason and out of your whole strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is not another commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:29


The cup of blessing that we bless—is it not communion with the blood of the Anointed? The loaf of bread that we break —is it not communion with the body of the Anointed?

1 Corinthians 10:16


For from the Lord I received what I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night in which he was betrayed, took a loaf of bread, And, having given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body, which is [being broken] for your sake; do this for my remembrance.” Likewise, after supping, the cup also, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this as often as you drink, for my remembrance.”

1 Corinthians 11:23


Compare to Luke:

And taking a cup and having given thanks he said, “Take this and share it among yourselves, For I tell you, I most surely will not drink from the yield of the wine from now until the Kingdom of God comes.” And taking a loaf of bread, having given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is being offered for you; do this in my memory.” And after supping he did likewise with the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is being shed for you. But look: The hand of him who betrays me is on the table with mine. For the Son of Man does indeed proceed as has been determined; yet alas for that man by whom he is handed over.”


Luke 22:17


For, among the very first things, I delivered to you what I had also received: that the Anointed died because of our sins, in accord with the scriptures, And that he was entombed, and that he was raised on the third day in accord with the scriptures, And that he was seen by Cephas, then by the Twelve; Thereafter he was seen by over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain till now, though some have fallen asleep; Thereafter he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles; And last of all, as if by a miscarried baby, he was seen by me also.

1 Corinthians 15:3


If people are still alive who saw Christ (including Paul), then Paul thinks this happened in recent historical time.


And he died on behalf of all so that the living should live no longer for themselves, but for the one who has died and been raised on their behalf. Thus, from now on, we know no one according to the flesh, even though we have known the Anointed—yet know him now no longer—according to flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:15


Knowing someone "according to the flesh" is to know them on earth in historical time.

So also we, when we were infants, were enslaved in subjection to the Elementals of the cosmos; But when the fullness of time had come God sent forth his Son, coming to be from a woman, coming to be under the Law, So that he might redeem those under Law, in order that we should receive filial adoption.

Galatians 4:3


So Christ was born to a woman and circumcised on his eight day like those under the law.


For the whole Law is summed up in a single utterance; to wit: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 5 14


See above.

Be of that mind in yourselves that was also in the Anointed One Jesus, Who, subsisting in God’s form, did not deem being on equal terms with God a thing to be grasped, But instead emptied himself, taking a slave’s form, coming to be in a likeness of human beings; and, being found as a human being in shape, He reduced himself, becoming obedient all the way to death, and a death by a cross.

Philippians 2:5


Here is the basic outline of the Gospel story.


Let those elders who preside well be accounted worthy of double honor, especially those laboring at discourse and teaching. For the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading grain” and “Worthy is the worker of his pay.”


Timothy 5:17


And remain in that household,eating and drinking meals with them; for the laborer is deserving of his wages.

Luke 10:7


Before the God who makes all things live, and before the Anointed One Jesus who bore witness to the good confession in the time of Pontius Pilate, I enjoin That you keep the commandment, immaculate, irreproachable, until the radiant appearing of our Lord Jesus the Anointed

Timothy 6:13

[Diogenes the Cynic]

There is nothing in any of these quotes that show knowledge of a historical Jesus or of any Gospel traditions. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is from Leviticus 19:18. Paul didn't write the Pastoral Epistles.

[Sinouhe]

Being Born from David's seed "according to the flesh" is to be born in history.

Judith is born from the tribe of Judah and Tobit is born from the tribe of naphtali. Both are fictional characters.

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for whoever loves the other fulfills the Law. For “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” along with every other commandment whatsoever, are summed up in this saying: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 13:8

Romans is quoting the OT. He never mentions Jesus in this teaching. If it was a Jesus teaching, then he would refer to him. In fact, tha'ts probably Romans 13:8 who inspired Mark to put this teaching in Jesus's mouth.

The same goes for the rest. The epistles of Paul were widely used by the authors of the NT to create teachings of Jesus.

[Ulan]

I find it always funny how little many Christians know about the OT. I don't know how often in my life I heard even priests preach that these verses about loving your neighbor as yourself or plucking grains on the Sabbath were some completely original teachings of Jesus with which he wanted to abolish Jewish laws - even though the canonical gospels write the opposite. And yet, all these "original teachings" come from the OT, like that Leviticus chapter.

Regardless where you stand in the historicity question or the quest for the origins of Christianity, the canonical gospels are completely Jewish in that regard.

[Thomas R]

There is nothing in any of these quotes that show knowledge of a historical Jesus or of any Gospel traditions. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is from Leviticus 19:18. Paul didn't write the Pastoral Epistles.

For from the Lord I received what I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night in which he was betrayed, took a loaf of bread, And, having given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body, which is [being broken] for your sake; do this for my remembrance.” Likewise, after supping, the cup also, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this as often as you drink, for my remembrance.”

1 Corinthians 11:23


Compare to Luke:

And taking a cup and having given thanks he said, “Take this and share it among yourselves, For I tell you, I most surely will not drink from the yield of the wine from now until the Kingdom of God comes.” And taking a loaf of bread, having given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is being offered for you; do this in my memory.” And after supping he did likewise with the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is being shed for you. But look: The hand of him who betrays me is on the table with mine. For the Son of Man does indeed proceed as has been determined; yet alas for that man by whom he is handed over.”


Luke 22:17

[Thomas R]

I find it always funny how little many Christians know about the OT.

I always find it funny how little atheists know about the religions they criticize.

[Thomas R]

According to the church's own history (and this has always been the understanding) the Gospels were oral traditions that were written down in the era of Papias, which was obviously after the death of Paul. So Paul knew an oral tradition not a written Gospel, just like everyone else in the early church.

Paul is one of the most idiosyncratic and mystifying writers in the entire western canon, as such arguments from his silence are entirely specious. No one knows why Paul did or didn't write something.

[dbz]

Paul is one of the most idiosyncratic and mystifying writers in the entire western canon, as such arguments from his silence are entirely specious. No one knows why Paul did or didn't write something.

Per "Paul is one of the most idiosyncratic and mystifying writers in the entire western canon". Do you concur that no more than seven authentic letters of Paul exist?

The earliest documents we have from Christians are the authentic letters of Paul (only seven; the rest are now known to be later forgeries), and perhaps a few other letters in the New Testament, like 1 Peter, James, Jude, and Hebrews, and possibly the first letter from Clement of Rome.
(pp. 17–18)

Carrier, Richard (2020). Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ. Pitchstone Publishing (US&CA). ISBN 978-1-63431-208-0.

[schillingklaus]

No letter of that fictional phantasm named Pazul exists; those abstrusely assigned to one chimerous Paul are all impious forgery and late piecemeal. Naive apologists are notoriouslty unable to see that simple and straightforward truth.

[Ulan]

I find it always funny how little many Christians know about the OT.

I always find it funny how little atheists know about the religions they criticize.

That may well be in some cases, but here the topic was how little you know about the OT, because you ascribed quotes to NT only (otherwise they wouldn't prove what you wanted to prove) that are clearly found in the OT.