Mythicists: Promoting religious agendas?

[yalla]

I've seen John the Baptist's left hand.
Well, one of them, he had 3 apparently.
The one I saw was in Topkapi in Istanbul - along with hairs from Mohammed's beard.
And the finger bone of Mark the purported author of the gospel of that name, along with lots of other goodies in Basilica San Marco in Venice.
Here, I found this partial list of such:
In subsequent centuries, many prominent relics of Christ—among them fragments of the True Cross, Christ's Holy Blood, and thorns from the Crown of Thorns—and relics of prominent saints—among them relics of Sts. George, John the Baptist, and Isidore—entered the Church of St. Mark's and were deposited in its treasury.
These must all be real.
Therefore Jesus existed.

[TedM]

i dont agree. what are your reasons?

No thesis is without its difficulties. Taking an HJ hypothesis shifts those difficulties away from "how did he get to be human" and towards "how did he get to be divine." So we get all these big books analyzing the mind of Paul and how he turned a crucified peasant into the fulcrum of history and the way to salvation for both Gentile and Jew. Perhaps we're simply more comfortable with the difficulties that the historicity of Jesus position throws up.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but do you see difficulty in the following?:

1. Israel was desperately seeking their long-predicted Messiah, and expecting him during their generation

2. A religious teacher arose who was thought by some to be the Messiah, and was possibly known of by many people.

3. Seen as a threat to Rome and/or the religious establishment, He got crucified during Passover, possibly due in part to his own anti-Roman actions.

4. Because He and his followers were seen by some as a potential threat to Rome, as would be any Messiah claimant, some initially thought of his death as a way to save Israel from Rome's wrath.

5. Some of his followers thought his spirit was resurrected, and so he went to live with God, whom he had called 'Father'.

6. Some of those that thought of him as a good man or Prophet unjustly killed, began to see his death during Passover as more than just a military sacrifice, but also as a spiritual sacrifice for the sins of Israel -like the sacrificial lambs of Passover, since their domination by Rome and previous nations had always been a direct result of Israel's sins.

7. A mixture of all of the above led religious thinkers to see connections to Messiac scriptures - most powerfully Isaiah 53, resulting in 'insights', maybe even visions, which confirmed to them the idea that Jesus had been the Messiah who had died for the salvation of the people, and so the Christian movement was quickly born.

8. Paul, one of the more gifted of those thinkers, dramatically converted through spiritual 'revelation', and profoundly spread the message throughout the surrounding countries, with an entire arsenal of Jewish scriptures to back him up, promising the same eternal life that Jesus had to those who believe, and was helped by like-minded Hellenistic Jews throughout those lands. His movement was opposed by many of the Jews.

9. About 40 years later, the destruction of the Temple and scattering of the Jews, in conjunction with the failure of Jesus to return with God and his Angels to pronounce Judgement on Rome as many initial believers had expected based on scriptures, caused more to see the 'salvation' as being a personal salvation from sins which results in eternal Life and available not just to Jews, but to Romans and all the Gentiles, both concepts which Paul had been preaching for decades.

Which of these is difficult to swallow?

4, 5, 6, 7, and 8.

[TedM]

decided to make my post a new thread

[Ulan]

Not to muddle the waters but the typical mythicist is indeed promoting a religious agenda. Man is his own god.

Which of course makes atheism a religion, whether they like the term 'religion' or not.

This old chestnut. Funny enough, it's exactly the other way round. If you view the old "God created man in his image" from an atheist viewpoint, it translates to "man created God in his image" as what believers are actually doing here. Believers* put a copy of themselves into the heavens and made it create the world. If that isn't self-aggrandizing. Similar reasoning applies to the idea that the creator of the world personally cares about every human being, which is also a self-centered viewpoint.

*I don't want to lump all believers together here, but this applies to a certain subset.

[Ulan]

The question was something like: "once you have destroyed Christianity, what religion will you destroy next?"

Crowd and Carrier laugh.

Carrier says, "in 200 years when I have destroyed Christianity..." Then he talks about having to learn other languages and becoming in an expert in another field. He is obviously talking tongue in cheek. Only viewing this with hostile intent could lead to the conclusion you have conjured up.

That happens when humorless meets literalist, I guess.

[outhouse]

Carrier's theories need to be evaluated on their merits.

They have.

They are laughable and unsubstantiated. He is selling books, that about it.

[John T]

The question was something like: "once you have destroyed Christianity, what religion will you destroy next?"

Crowd and Carrier laugh.

Carrier says, "in 200 years when I have destroyed Christianity..." Then he talks about having to learn other languages and becoming in an expert in another field. He is obviously talking tongue in cheek. Only viewing this with hostile intent could lead to the conclusion you have conjured up.

That happens when humorless meets literalist, I guess.

The questioner from the San Jose atheists meeting was tickled that someone like Carrier was brave enough to publicly declare that Christianity was based on a myth and wanted him to go after Islam as well.

It was not really a serious question but a snide comment against Christians and a bit of encouragement for Carrier to keep on trucking.

What was sad about Carrier's lecture to the San Jose atheists is he knew they were actually the ignorant ones when it comes to the historicity of Jesus (or the Bible for that matter) and they would tend to believe whatever he said as long as it was critical of Christianity. Of course if he did that same lecture in a debate format with an apologist like William Lane Craig, he would have his rear-end handed to him.

The irony of Carrier taking advantage of those who consider themselves enlighten/brights but in reality he was really playing them as the fool in order to sell some books, now that would be funny if it wasn't so dishonest.

But hey, this is a free country, you can make up your own religion, crown yourself leader and sell books, etc....have at it.

"There is a sucker born every minute."... P.T. Barnum

JT

[outhouse]

The questioner from the San Jose atheists meeting was tickled that someone like Carrier was brave enough to publicly declare that Christianity was based on a myth and wanted him to go after Islam as well.

It is factually based on myth. And that does not mean Jesus was not a human being or he historical core to the mythology.

islam are all literalist who plagiarized the bible and have no idea on what reality actually is. islam is refuted in a few words. Why does not one single credible historian use the koran for any historical aspects of Israel or Jesus? Because it is historically worthless in this context.

[cienfuegos]

The question was something like: "once you have destroyed Christianity, what religion will you destroy next?"

Crowd and Carrier laugh.

Carrier says, "in 200 years when I have destroyed Christianity..." Then he talks about having to learn other languages and becoming in an expert in another field. He is obviously talking tongue in cheek. Only viewing this with hostile intent could lead to the conclusion you have conjured up.

That happens when humorless meets literalist, I guess.

The questioner from the San Jose atheists meeting was tickled that someone like Carrier was brave enough to publicly declare that Christianity was based on a myth and wanted him to go after Islam as well.

It was not really a serious question but a snide comment against Christians and a bit of encouragement for Carrier to keep on trucking.

What was sad about Carrier's lecture to the San Jose atheists is he knew they were actually the ignorant ones when it comes to the historicity of Jesus (or the Bible for that matter) and they would tend to believe whatever he said as long as it was critical of Christianity. Of course if he did that same lecture in a debate format with an apologist like William Lane Craig, he would have his rear-end handed to him.

The irony of Carrier taking advantage of those who consider themselves enlighten/brights but in reality he was really playing them as the fool in order to sell some books, now that would be funny if it wasn't so dishonest.

But hey, this is a free country, you can make up your own religion, crown yourself leader and sell books, etc....have at it.

"There is a sucker born every minute."... P.T. Barnum

JT

More assertions with no evidence.

[John T]

Wrapping it up.
************************


Proposition: Mythicists are only interested in promoting their own religious agendas, not in doing historical research....cienfuegos

Answer: Yes. And if (that is a big if) cienfuegos can provide any examples otherwise, please due so. But to default to the childish tactic of dismissing all evidence that does not agree with your ideology as: mere assertions with no evidence, doesn't cut it with rational reasoning adults.

Perhaps you should try it on Carrier and his fellow-travelers?

"I [Richard Carrier] do not endorse nor will defend most mythicist arguments, many of which are amateur and often illogical or factually incorrect"...Carrier @the 32 minute mark in the debate against Zeba Crook.

http://youtu.be/BgmHqjblsPw

Carrier claims he is a professional and can be trusted on the subject and he claims the most plausible mythicist theory in a nut-shell is: Jesus is a myth and never exisisted. The Jesus myth was made-up by Paul. That if you take a closer look at Paul (actually you must ignore all contrary sources) you get a Jesus; "incarnation, death and burial taking place in outer space just below the moon."...Carrier

Now talk about mere assertions with no evidence.

You may not believe me when I say Carrier's real motive is to promote atheism but what else could it be, because it sure ain't about doing historical/Biblical research.

The mythisict canard is getting real old.
Time for me to look at other things more productive.

John T