Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Nazare

[MrMacSon]

... how on earth does this Political Movement get written out of the Gospels?

... People would rather create communities populated by people who study certain sayings of a savior/god than look to see if the Road Grading of Judea might have meant something - some teeny weeny something that was of less importance than some belief in an Alien Platonic Ideal. "Jews and Culture? Are you kidding me?"

History is written by the victors. Especially 'relevant' theo-political history.

Who authorized the replacement Rabbinic School of Thought anyway? And why?

Did Rabbinic Judaism need authorizing? It developed 5th-6th century AD/CE, out of Pharisaic Judaism? in conjunction with the Babylonian Talmud?

[Charles Wilson]

First, a big "Thank You" for considering some of these arguments.

History is written by the victors. Especially 'relevant' theo-political history.

100% Agreement. Now let's see if we can find what these "Victors" left, what they wrote and what it means. Did the Vanquished also leave something of what was Stolen from them? I believe the answer is "Yes!".

Did Rabbinic Judaism need authorizing? It developed 5th-6th century AD/CE, out of Pharisaic Judaism? in conjunction with the Babylonian Talmud?

I believe that it did, in fact, need authorizing. The longer analysis may take a week to put together, pending arrival of a particular replacement book for the one I lost but, as I see it, this is suggestive because of its FORM:

Acts 5: 34 - 39 (RSV):

[34] But a Pharisee in the council named Gama'li-el, a teacher of the law, held in honor by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while.
[35] And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you do with these men.
[36] For before these days Theu'das arose, giving himself out to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him; but he was slain and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
[37] After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered.
[38] So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;
[39] but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"

This is a Reasoned Argument, Non-Messianic and very Post 6 CE. It is giving direct advice as to "How might I SURVIVE?" It is a Set Piece.
There is a Remnant of Jews who will survive by the approval of the Court of the Romans and the Flavians. They will live if they will declare that Titus was the Messiah and if they change from Messianism to a Rabbinic Thought.
They most definitely need authorization to live. Everyone else was murdered.

CW

PS: What is your expertise on the Babylonian Talmud? I'm tracking something and any help I find will greatly appreciated!

[MrMacSon]

Cheers. I have no expertise on the Babylonian Talmud, other than via an internet serach

[Leucius Charinus]

But...if that is so (and it is...), then how on earth does this Political Movement get written out of the Gospels? As I've stated before, Herod's last speech is about how Herod accomplished more in his reign than the Hasmoneans accomplished in 125 years. The "Politics" bound up in Jewish Theology ends up being concerned with the elimination of the Jews and their Culture and the Replacement of the Religious Culture with a derivative written by and for the Romans.

That's the elephant in the room.

Hi Mac and Charles,

To what extent do you think that the NT was a political manifesto - for the conversion of the gentiles to the Christian god?

The multiplicity of the Naz names is often quite confusing.

Here are a few references that might be related to the OP.

◦Two Gnostic Gospels
Robert M. Grant, Journal of Biblical Literature > Vol. 79, No. 1, Mar., 1960
On the Gospel of Thomas:

• "... a carefully selected announcement of basic Gnostic doctrines. His monotonous repetition of the phrase "Jesus said", does not prove that his gospel is Christian ....[...]... the environment in which Thomas did his work is almost certainly Gnostic. Indeed, if we make a point-by-point comparison between Thomas and the Naassenes described in the fifth book of Hippolytus's "Refutation", we may well conclude that his gospel not only was used by them but was also composed in support of their doctrines. ......It is important as a witness to the development of Gnostic Christology, not to the teaching of the historical Jesus.

◦The Naming of the Naassenes: Hippolytus, Refutatio V. 6-10 as Hieros Logos
Mark J. Edwards, Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik, Bd. 112, (1996) (pp. 74-80)

• "Were Gnostics in antiquity ever pagan? It has generally been assumed that they do not belong to the history of Classical religion, but some at least belong to the history of its explanation. I shall argue here that a text, which in its present form can be treated as the earliest extant document of Gnostic Christianity, began as an exposition of the Eleusinian mysteries. I shall not infer that our author was a pagan; since, indeed, the gnosis he taught was not so much a revelation as an instrument for interpreting all previous revelations, I shall not attempt to show that he worshipped any gods at all.
  
  [Concludes ...]
  
  "The gnosis of the earliest Gnostics, therefore, would appear to be: not a mystery, but a studious collocation of the mysteries; a philological discipline which aims to be the master, not the servant, of philosophy; a parliament of symbols which does not proclaim a new code of belief."

Be well,


LC