Ah, I hate discovering threads when they are already 8 pages long!
On the topic of OT prophecy and things like the "Triumphal Entry" I am split. On one hand, I appreciate the argument from redundancy in that if it was thought of as something the messiah would do, we cannot say for sure that Jesus actually did it (since the gospel writers/rumormongers would have wanted such details to fill out the story). On the other hand, if we do posit an HJ, then he must have done some thing or some things during his lifetime which convinced his followers that he was the messiah. I have yet to see a strong enough argument for the "suffering servant" being interpreted as messianic pre-Christianity (although I am open to the possibility), and find it much more likely these beliefs about him developed before the crucifixion (and then cue cognitive dissonance). So little things like riding into Jerusalem on a donkey could theoretically fit the bill of someone who wanted to give off that he was the One foretold.
On another note, I am hesitant to attribute any atonement theology to Cephas or any of Jesus' relatives/followers. That might be a Pauline innovation. I'm particularly struck by the Didache, which lacks any talk of Christ's atoning death when describing the Eucharist.
HJ and Christian origins plausibility
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Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
An interesting thought, right? In this context, I love the following passage from Luke 22:MattMorales wrote:On the topic of OT prophecy and things like the "Triumphal Entry" I am split. On one hand, I appreciate the argument from redundancy in that if it was thought of as something the messiah would do, we cannot say for sure that Jesus actually did it (since the gospel writers/rumormongers would have wanted such details to fill out the story). On the other hand, if we do posit an HJ, then he must have done some thing or some things during his lifetime which convinced his followers that he was the messiah.
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.
37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)
Isn't this wonderful? The text at the same time implies that this deed of purchasing the swords was done for the sole purpose of fulfilling some OT screen-play and that he actually didn't like doing this. So it actually implies that he only did this to look like the promised messiah.37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)
Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
I always find the story as written as rhetoric mythology to match OT prophecy and nothing more.MattMorales wrote: On the topic of OT prophecy and things like the "Triumphal Entry"
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I leave the chance he could have been mocking Pilates entry per Crossan.
Knowing the trial was fiction, events in the temple for the most part fiction, I put very little faith in any details from people far removed from any event.
Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
It's funny. If you take the story at face value, there were no obvious witnesses.outhouse wrote:Knowing the trial was fiction, events in the temple for the most part fiction, I put very little faith in any details from people far removed from any event.
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Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
Ulan wrote:An interesting thought, right? In this context, I love the following passage from Luke 22:
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.Isn't this wonderful? The text at the same time implies that this deed of purchasing the swords was done for the sole purpose of fulfilling some OT screen-play and that he actually didn't like doing this. So it actually implies that he only did this to look like the promised messiah.
37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)
Luke was just stu...
Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
True. In principle, he is telling us here that Jesus was a pretender.Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Ulan wrote:An interesting thought, right? In this context, I love the following passage from Luke 22:
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.Isn't this wonderful? The text at the same time implies that this deed of purchasing the swords was done for the sole purpose of fulfilling some OT screen-play and that he actually didn't like doing this. So it actually implies that he only did this to look like the promised messiah.
37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "It is enough," he replied. (NRSV)
Luke was just stu...
Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
Comprehensive issues?Ulan wrote:It's funny. If you take the story at face value, there were no obvious witnesses.outhouse wrote:Knowing the trial was fiction, events in the temple for the most part fiction, I put very little faith in any details from people far removed from any event.
How is saying other elements are fiction taking it at face value?
Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
Whose? Did I contradict you or corroborate your statement?outhouse wrote:Comprehensive issues?Ulan wrote:It's funny. If you take the story at face value, there were no obvious witnesses.outhouse wrote:Knowing the trial was fiction, events in the temple for the most part fiction, I put very little faith in any details from people far removed from any event.
Re: HJ and Christian origins plausibility
OK, I think I understand what your getting at now.Ulan wrote: Whose? Did I contradict you or corroborate your statement?
I did not see how it tied into my reply.