Re: Bathtime Stories: Ebion and Cerinthus
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2023 7:36 pm
Some sources identify "Hebion" as the founder of the Ebionites and "Elxai" as founder of the Elchasites.
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
On further reflection, this is a fair point.billd89 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:46 pm The Epistle of the Apostles written about 160 AD would establish the personage as historical
Irenaeus seems to suggest that separationists like Cerinthus used the Gospel of Mark, as per your analysis above. Irenaeus, Book 3:
Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:11 pmCerinthus, again, a man who was educated in the wisdom of the Egyptians, taught that the world was not made by the primary God, but by a certain Power far separated from him, and at a distance from that Principality who is supreme over the universe, and ignorant of him who is above all. He represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being.
Good find! Thank you for mentioning that.GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:47 pmIrenaeus seems to suggest that separationists like Cerinthus used the Gospel of Mark, as per your analysis above. Irenaeus, Book 3:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... book3.html
So firm is the ground upon which these Gospels rest, that the very heretics themselves bear witness to them, and, starting from these [documents], each one of them endeavours to establish his own peculiar doctrine. For the Ebionites, who use Matthew's Gospel only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord. But Marcion, mutilating that according to Luke, is proved to be a blasphemer of the only existing God, from those [passages] which he still retains. Those, again, who separate Jesus from Christ, alleging that Christ remained impassible, but that it was Jesus who suffered, preferring the Gospel by Mark, if they read it with a love of truth, may have their errors rectified. Those, moreover, who follow Valentinus, making copious use of that according to John, to illustrate their conjunctions, shall be proved to be totally in error by means of this very Gospel, as I have shown in the first book. Since, then, our opponents do bear testimony to us, and make use of these [documents], our proof derived from them is firm and true.
Thanks Peter, but given I have virtually no knowledge of the ancient languages involved, there isn't much I can contribute I'm afraid. I try to stay squarely within the English translations. If English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me.Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:54 pm By the way, GakuseiDon, I would look forward to hearing more from you on the exploration of the theme of Chrestos, etc.
There's also lots of interesting stuff that Mr. Buckley and I are turning up as references to what I'm calling a Marcionite nexus. These are not always part of the typical "canon" of explicit "Marcion" references mined for such beliefs. Such as with reference to the Epistle to Diognetus, the Acts of Thomas, remarks by Clement of Alexandria, the Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions, the Second Apocalypse of James, and perhaps the Apology of Aristides. I wonder what you make of it.GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:22 pmThanks Peter, but given I have virtually no knowledge of the ancient languages involved, there isn't much I can contribute I'm afraid. I try to stay squarely within the English translations. If English was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me.Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:54 pm By the way, GakuseiDon, I would look forward to hearing more from you on the exploration of the theme of Chrestos, etc.