Jesus Not Nailed to the Cross?

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi All,

In researching crucifixion, I have never found any evidence of anybody being actually nailed to a cross. I don't count the idiotic nonsense of the foot found with a nail in it as evidence of anything.

None of the gospels mention it when describing the crucifixion. The only mention of nails comes in John 20:25 with Thomas:

20.25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."

The Greek is

ελεγον ουν αυτω οι αλλοι μαθηται εωρακαμεν τον κυριον ο δε ειπεν αυτοις εαν μη ιδω εν ταις χερσιν αυτου τον τυπον των ηλων και βαλω τον δακτυλον μου εις τον τυπον των ηλων και βαλω την χειρα μου εις την πλευραν αυτου ου μη πιστευσω

the expression τυπον των ηλων is the "mark" or "impression" of the nail.

It seem to me that term "nail" is being used metaphorically. Roman nails were quite large, so it would be easy to see the imprint of any nail. A more accurate modern sense of the meaning would be "until I see him face to face and touch him with my fingers, I will not believe."

Doing a little bit of research, I found these writers use the term "nail" (ηλων) metaphorically too.

Pseudo Plutarch

Chapter XIV. Of What Figure the Stars Are:
The Stoics say that the stars are of a circular form, like the sun, the moon, and the world. Cleanthes, that they are of a conical figure. Anaximenes, that they are fastened as nails in the crystalline firmament;

Plutarch: Non posse suaviter vivi secundum Epicurum, sec 3.

For pain will not troll off as pleasure doth, nor imitate it in its pleasing and tickling touches. But as the clover twists its perplexed and winding roots into the earth, and through its coarseness abides there a long time; so pain disperses and entangles its hooks and roots in the body, and continues there, not for a day or a night, but for several seasons of years, if not for some revolutions of Olympiads, [p. 161] nor scarce ever departs unless struck out by other pains, as by stronger nails.

Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 13:19

For, wishing to assume the character of independence and frugality, you are found at the gate of covetousness, living sordidly, clothed in scanty cloaks, filling the soles of your shoes with nails, and giving hard names to any one who uses the very smallest quantity of perfume, or who is dressed in apparel which is at all delicate.

Does anybody have more examples of the term "nail" being used metaphorically in ancient times?
Any thoughts on this idea? I think it is an example of a myth developing within a myth, by taking a metaphor literally.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

[Charles Wilson]

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Otho":

"After that, quenching his thirst with a draught of cold water, he caught up two daggers, and having tried the point of both of them, put one under his pillow. Then closing the doors, he slept very soundly. When he at last woke up at about daylight, he stabbed himself with a single stroke under the left breast; and now concealing the wound, and now showing it to those who rushed in at his first groan, he breathed his last and was hastily buried (for such were his orders) in the thirty-eighth year of his age and on the ninety-fifth day of his reign..."

There's more here if you would be interested.

CW

[outhouse]

I don't count the idiotic nonsense of the foot found with a nail in it as evidence of anything.






Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Jay, that is a personal problem.


The unknown Hellenist authors writing to a Roman audience so they are not labeled as pesky trouble making Jews ARE NOT going to highlight brutal Roman punishment.


Romans known for being barbaric at setting examples with punishment, you could use your imagination and probably be correct in brutality.

To discount ways to torture people is not really plausible here, with direct physical evidence.

[maryhelena]

Hi All,

In researching crucifixion, I have never found any evidence of anybody being actually nailed to a cross. I don't count the idiotic nonsense of the foot found with a nail in it as evidence of anything.

How about nails through a hand?

Cold case: Did archaeologists find the last Maccabean king, after all?

http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-1.587977

After reading Elitzur's paper, Hershkovitz re-examined the remains. He analyzed the nails using an electron microscope, determining that they did break the bones of the hand, as would occur in crucifixion.

A crucified Hasmonean king?

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.co.uk/2014 ... 5100328137

Read it all. Whoever the victim was, if Hershkovitz's conclusions are correct, this would the the second crucified body recovered from antiquity.

[bcedaifu]

I suppose, contrarily, Jay, that in fact the Romans did crucify opponents, by pounding nails through the hands and feet, and legs and arms.
There are two compelling reasons for this:
a. the agony would be far more profound, than simply binding the hands and arms and legs with rope to the timbers.
b. the goal was to ensure a long duration death. Had they desired to simply kill the person, they would have simply cut off his head.

These executions were performed for two reasons: first: to serve as deterrent to would be criminals--these guys did not enjoy a pleasant, or quiet, death. They were alive for more than a day, unless crucified upside down, as a gesture of humanity, to hasten the death. During that day, people came by, and threw rocks and garbage and excrement at them.

The second reason was to serve as reminder to the troops guarding the empire, that the governing body supervising the empire, had faith in the troop's loyalty, and as evidence of that, condemned those who had been captured, to a long and painful death, in part to compensate for the loss of the soldier's friends and fellow men at arms. Watching the slow painful death of their comrades, seriously injured in the capture of the miscreants, was a miserable experience, and the Roman government, to maintain morale, made certain that those responsible for terrorist acts, and the death or disability of Roman Legionaires, paid a horrific price.

[Charles Wilson]

Please remember that the death from crucifixion comes from asphyxiation, not bleeding. The muscles in the rib cage can no longer expand the lungs and the person suffocates.

[MrMacSon]

I suppose, contrarily, Jay, that in fact the Romans did crucify opponents, by pounding nails through the hands and feet, and legs and arms.
There are two compelling reasons for this:

• a. the agony would be far more profound, than simply binding the hands and arms and legs with rope to the timbers.

Binding could be as painful, at least initially.

My understanding is most crosses at the time were X or T shaped (ie. hardly any, if any at all, were 't' shaped).

[Kapyong]

Gday Jay,

I did a search for 'nail' in English and came across many writers who used it literally, but couldn't find any obvious metaphorical uses.

One example, Seneca, is specifically referring to crucifixion :

"Nay," he cries, "you may weaken my body if you will ony leave the breath of life in my battered and ineffective carcass!Maim me if you will, but allow me, misshapen and deformed as I may be, just a little more time in the world! You may nail me up and set my seat upon the piercing cross!" Is it worth while to weigh down upon one's own wound, and hang impaled upon a gibbet, that one may but postpone something which is the balm of troubles, the end of punishment?

Livy uses 'nail' when referring to marking the city's calendar :

There is an ancient instruction written in archaic letters which runs: Let him who is the praetor maximus fasten a nail on the Ides of September. This notice was fastened up on the right side of the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, next to the chapel of Minerva. This nail is said to have marked the number of the year-written records being scarce in those days-and was for that reason placed under the protection of Minerva because she was the inventor of numbers

Josephus uses 'nail' when Jael nailed Sisera to the floor (Antiquities 5)

Pliny uses 'nail' when discussing nailing into different woods, nailing a star-fish to a door, along with other uses, including a mention of a nail from a crucifixion :

So, too, in cases of quartan fever, they take a fragment of a nail from a cross, or else a piece of a halter that has been used for crucifixion, and, after wrapping it in wool, attach it to the patient's neck; taking care, the moment he has recovered, to conceal it in some hole to which the light of the sun cannot penetrate

Plutarch mentions driving a brazen nail through flesh :

Now the brazen nail that is driven through the flesh, if, as they say, it keeps the flesh from putrefying, doth it by an astringent quality proper to the brass.

Apollodorus mentions Prometheus being 'nailed' to Mt Caucasus.


Regards,

Quentin

[Leucius Charinus]

Hi All,

In researching crucifixion, I have never found any evidence of anybody being actually nailed to a cross.

Hi Philosopher Jay,

In the archaeological record whether nailed, or tied, Jesus was not traditionally depicted on a cross. The earliest imagery of Jesus seems to have been associated with various NT scenes and events (e.g. Jesus raises Lazarus with a wand) but not the crucifixion scene or event. According to the following reference the figure of Jesus on a cross (i.e. a crucifix) does not enter the archaeological record until the 6th century CE. Before that the "church organisation" corporate imagery seems to have been a lamb on a cross. (This is where Helena was useful). It also cites a Council of Trullo in 692 CE in which was decreed ...

• "We order that, instead of the lamb, our Lord Jesus Christ shall be shown hereafter in his human form in the images ....... blah blah blah"

The Cross in Ritual, Architecture and Art By Geo. S. Tyack
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=exQ ... 22&f=false

Does anybody have more examples of the term "nail" being used metaphorically in ancient times?
Any thoughts on this idea? I think it is an example of a myth developing within a myth, by taking a metaphor literally.

Sozomen and Theodoret claim that Helena also (in addition to the One True Cross) found the nails of the crucifixion. ... allegedly had one placed in Constantine's helmet, and another in the bridle of his horse.

• The mother of the emperor, on learning the accomplishment of her desire, gave orders that a portion of the nails should be inserted in the royal helmet, in order that the head of her son might be preserved from the darts of his enemies. The other portion of the nails she ordered to be formed into the bridle of his horse, not only to ensure the safety of the emperor, but also to fulfil an ancient prophecy; for long before Zechariah, the prophet, had predicted that 'There shall be upon the bridles of the horses Holiness unto the Lord Almighty.
  
  Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History, chapter xvii,

I think this is yet another example of a myth developing within a myth. I also think that Sozomen and Theodoret were instrumental in preserving the literary evidence of this myth. This may just be another metaphor for pseudo-historical information. IDK. What do you think?


What if anything do the heretics (and Nag Hammadi) have to say about the term "nail"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_(relic)

http://www.google.com/cse?cof=LW%3A467% ... gsc.page=1

• About 4 results (0.30 seconds)
  
  The Apocalypse of Peter -- The Nag Hammadi Library
  
  But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his ...
  
  gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html
  
  
  
  
  The Apocryphon of John -- The Nag Hammadi Library
  
  ... Beluai, the left hand; Treneu, the fingers of the right hand; Balbel, the fingers of the left hand; Kriman, the nails of the hands; Astrops, the right breast; Barroph, ...
  
  gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html
  
  
  
  
  A Valentinian Exposition -- The Nag Hammadi Library
  
  the imprints of the nail wound [...] perfection. Since it is a perfect form that should ascend into the Pleroma, he did not at all want to consent to the suffering, but he ...
  
  gnosis.org/naghamm/valex.html
  
  
  
  
  The Second Treatise of the Great Seth -- The Nag Hammadi Library
  
  They nailed him to the tree, and they fixed him with four nails of brass. The veil of his temple he tore with his hands. It was a trembling which seized the chaos of ...
  
  gnosis.org/naghamm/2seth.html

Be well,



LC

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi Kapyong,

This is very helpful. Thank you.

In the Symposiacs by Plutarch, I found these two metaphorical uses of nail in book VIII:

For the nail of pain and pleasure, that fastens the soul to the body, seems to do us the greatest mischief, by making sensible things more powerful over us than intelligible, and by forcing the understanding to determine the rather according to passion than reason.

Then with a smile looking upon Autobulus, he continued: But, sir, I perceive you design to have an airy skirmish with these images, and try the excellence of this old opinion, as you would a picture, by your nail.

This brings to five the number of text found using "nail" in an allegorical sense.

The use of nails in Book III refers to putting a nail in a boar or doe to keep its flesh from putrifying.

But, said Satyrus, this is not so strange as the common practice of the hunters; for, when they send a boar or a doe to a city some miles distant, they drive a brazen nail into it to keep it from stinking... Now the brazen nail that is driven through the flesh, if, as they say, it keeps the flesh from putrefying, doth it by an astringent quality proper to the brass. The rust of brass physicians use in astringent medicines,...Some perhaps may say, that the nail being driven through draws all the moisture to itself, for the humor still flows to the part that is hurt; and therefore it is said that by the nail there always appears some speck and tumor; and therefore it is rational that the other parts should remain sound, when all the corruption gathers about that.

The word in Seneca translated as "nail" my be translated as "affix
In Pliny, I cannot tell for sure without a chapter reference, but he makes a distinction between a nail from a crux (stake) and a halter from a crucifixion. If Pliny was indicating a nail from a crucifixion, he would have said a nail and a halter from a crucifixion.

Pseudo Apollodorus says, "Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 45 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Prometheus, after forming men from water and earth, gave them fire, which he had hidden in a stalk of giant fennel to escape the notice of Zeus. When Zeus found out, he ordered Hephaistos to rivet the body of Prometheus to Mount Kaukasos."
In general the story goes that Prometheus was chained, nobody in ancient times except perhaps for Christians used the term nailed for what happened to Prometheus.

As for the other use of a nail to hang up a calendar, that's nice and I am sure there are hundreds of text that mention nails to hang up this and that. What doesn't exist, as far as I have found, is a reference to a crucifixion on a cross involving a nail, at least any non-Christian mention, prior to the year 200. Therefore we may conclude, at least until some evidence is presented, that if anybody heard
Thomas using the term mark of the nail in regards to a crucifixion, they would have taken him metaphorically, or they would have said, "What are you talking about, nobody has ever heard of a nail being used in a crucifixion on a cross."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Gday Jay,

I did a search for 'nail' in English and came across many writers who used it literally, but couldn't find any obvious metaphorical uses.

One example, Seneca, is specifically referring to crucifixion :

"Nay," he cries, "you may weaken my body if you will ony leave the breath of life in my battered and ineffective carcass!Maim me if you will, but allow me, misshapen and deformed as I may be, just a little more time in the world! You may nail me up and set my seat upon the piercing cross!" Is it worth while to weigh down upon one's own wound, and hang impaled upon a gibbet, that one may but postpone something which is the balm of troubles, the end of punishment?

Livy uses 'nail' when referring to marking the city's calendar :

There is an ancient instruction written in archaic letters which runs: Let him who is the praetor maximus fasten a nail on the Ides of September. This notice was fastened up on the right side of the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, next to the chapel of Minerva. This nail is said to have marked the number of the year-written records being scarce in those days-and was for that reason placed under the protection of Minerva because she was the inventor of numbers

Josephus uses 'nail' when Jael nailed Sisera to the floor (Antiquities 5)

Pliny uses 'nail' when discussing nailing into different woods, nailing a star-fish to a door, along with other uses, including a mention of a nail from a crucifixion :

So, too, in cases of quartan fever, they take a fragment of a nail from a cross, or else a piece of a halter that has been used for crucifixion, and, after wrapping it in wool, attach it to the patient's neck; taking care, the moment he has recovered, to conceal it in some hole to which the light of the sun cannot penetrate

Plutarch mentions driving a brazen nail through flesh :

Now the brazen nail that is driven through the flesh, if, as they say, it keeps the flesh from putrefying, doth it by an astringent quality proper to the brass.

Apollodorus mentions Prometheus being 'nailed' to Mt Caucasus.


Regards,

Quentin