Did Justin ignore Pilate?

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Giuseppe
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Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »

The mention of Pilate by Justin may be a late interpolation.

So I read in:

The four gospels as historical records Williams and Norgate 1895

The whole incident as related is impossible. It never took place, as it is said to have taken place ; and this is the last feature in the so-called trial before Pilate. Every one of these features, as given to us, has been shown to be imaginary; and hence it follows that we have no positive warrant for maintaining that the trial itself is an historical reality. Taking the stories as the evangelists relate them, we are driven to the conclusion that there was no betrayal, no arrest, no examination before Annas or Caiaphas, no judgement, and no condemnation, if we look merely to the historical evidence, for of such evidence there is none. The incidents in the trial before Pilate can only be taken one by one. They have been so taken, and each incident is shown to be fictitious. The trial cannot therefore be legitimately treated as an antecedent to any events which are said to have happened subsequently. [1] The examination of these later events is, therefore, in strictness of speech, superfluous.

(p. 426-427)

Note 1 reads:

This is a point on which I must not be misunderstood. The record of each incident taken separately has been shown to be untrustworthy and unhistorical. But it is possible that events may take place, the reports of which may be in every particular incorrect. It may be thus in the case of the trial before Pilate. I fully admit the possibility of a trial without any of these incidents and without such termination ; but I am bound not less clearly to say that we have no warrant of historical evidence for affrming the reality.


We enter now on an inquiry which, as we have seen, is, in strictness of speech, superfluous. If there was no formal trial and no formal sentence, there could be no carrying out of a judgement never given—in other words, no crucifixion carried out by Roman officers on the warrant of the governor. If in such case there was any execution, it could be nothing more than the result of mob violence acting in defiance of law, as the story of the Acts represents the Jews as acting in the matter of Stephen. There is, perhaps, little rashness in saying that we shall not find the inquiry more free from difiiculty as we go on.

(p. 429)


Justin, who clearly had another story before him in the ' Memorials of the Apostles,' directly charges the Jews with so slandering the Christians. ' When,' he says, ' you knew that he had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, as the prophets had foretold, not only did you not repent . . . but at that time you selected and sent forth from Jerusalem, throughout the land, chosen men, saying that " the atheistic heresy of the Christians had arisen . . . from a certain Jesus, a Galilean impostor, whom we crucified, but his disciples stole him by night from the tomb where he had been laid, when he was unloosed from the cross, and they now deceive men, saying that he has arisen from the dead and ascended into heaven."' Justin's reiterated quotation of the passage may be taken as showing that he received it from the 'Memorials of the Apostles' ; but it does not prove that the story originated with non-Christian Jews. The Jews had not the right of inflicting crucifixion in the days of Pilate. See further, Supernatural Religion, i. 339, 343.

(p. 449-450, my bold)
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »

Hence a possible scenario:
  • a celestial crucifixion (evidence: Paul)
  • a crucifixion by a Jewish mob (Justin included)
  • a crucifixion by Herod only (Marcion)
  • a crucifixion only by Pilate (Mark)
  • a crucifixion by Herod and Pilate (by anti-marcionite Luke)
The weakest point is the third: a crucifixion by Herod only in Marcion. The only evidence supporting it would be the mention, by Naassenes, of the Jesus-Serpent descending again 'in the days of Herod', the latter being the agent of the evil demiurge in Judea.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »

However I am not persuaded by the possibility that Justin ignored Pilate.

If, docet J. M. Robertson,
Pontius Pilate is simply a figure in the later Mystery Drama, originally chosen, probably, because of his notoriety as a shedder of Jewish blood


...such an item as the part played by Pilate is likely to have been first introduced from the Jewish side, Pilate having been an object of special Jewish detestation.

...then Justin was very probably 'from the Jewish side' and against the radical gentilizers. I cannot think about a gentile Justin: he was a Jew and even more so as an enemy of Marcion.

When Klinghardt writes:

This insight into the reception of elements of the Herod episode by Mark and Matthew is important because the following mockery of Jesus by Herod and the soldiers (verse *11) is unattested and has a counterpart in the mockery by the soldiers of Pilate (Mark 15,17-20a || Matt 27,27-31a). The omission of the Herod episode through Mark and Matthew had the consequence that they adopted these elements, placed them into the mockery by Pilate's soldiers, and combined with elements from the pre-canonical crucifixion episode.

(The Oldest Gospel, p. 1178, my bold)

...he has clearly in mind the reason of a such omission of Herod: the presence of Herod was not a pleasure for the Judaizers, and Mark, or the interpolator who introduced Pilate and removed Herod from Mark, was one.

Hence I think that the radical gentilizers (Naassenes, Marcion) introduced Herod while Judaizers (Ebionites, Justin) introduced Pilate. And both did so for the same reason:
  • the guilt of Herod extends to all Jews;
  • the guilt of Pilate extends to all Gentiles.
ADDENDA:

in virtue of the same reason,

the presence of Pilate was not a pleasure for the Gentilizers
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »

There is an argument that goes against the idea of a Herod-killing-Jesus story preceding the Pilate-killing-Jesus story:
  • The best argument for the late introduction of Pilate is that Pilate was added by the Jewish-Christians because (1) he was hated by Jews for the his cruelty and (2) the guilt of Pilate extends accordingly to all Gentiles(=-Christians).
  • If the Herod's mention preceded the Pilate's mention, then Pilate is introduced only because he was the contemporary of Herod and not in virtue of the point (1) above: contradiction.
Therefore the choice of Herod doesn't precede the choice of Pilate, since otherwise the choice of Pilate was dictated merely by the mention of the his contemporary Herod. And not more by the fact that the crimes of Pilate become the crimes of all the Gentiles: something that has to embarrass them.

Therefore a best line of evolution of the story would be:
  • Mention of Jews only;
  • Mention of Jews + Pilate;
  • Mention of Herod, with Pilate mere observer
  • Mention of Pilate, with Herod mere observer
  • Mention of Pilate only
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arnoldo
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Re: Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by arnoldo »

FWIW, allegedly P52 mentions the Jews + Pilate and may be dated to the third century.
800px-JRL19071951.jpg
800px-JRL19071951.jpg (166.92 KiB) Viewed 523 times
the Jews, "For us it is not permitted to kill
anyone," so that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he sp-
oke signifying what kind of death he was going to
die. Entered therefore again into the Praeto-
rium Pilate and summoned Jesus
and said to him, "Thou art king of the
Jews?
"
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Giuseppe
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Re: Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by Giuseppe »

There is really a point where Klinghardt appears to be very close, at least in my eyes, to advance the idea that in *Ev the real executioners of the crucifixion were the Jews themselves, once they had the permission to do so by Pilate.

If my suggestion is true, then that would make the hypothesis that the Jews were the only original killers (with the addition of Pilate being not perfectly harmonized with the original version), even more concrete: Marcion was a gentilizer, and my conclusion above, docet J. M. Robertson, is that the mention of Pilate was not a pleasure for gentilizers.

Next I will quote it.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Did Justin ignore Pilate?

Post by andrewcriddle »

arnoldo wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:58 am FWIW, allegedly P52 mentions the Jews + Pilate and may be dated to the third century.
P52 may be dated to the 2nd century.

Andrew Criddle
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