The Blessed Virgin Mary

[Huon]

On September 19, 1846, near the village of La Salette (France), two children, a shepherdess of fifteen named Mélanie Calvat, and a shepherd-boy of eleven named Maximin Giraud, both of them very ignorant, beheld in a resplendent light a "beautiful lady" clad in a strange costume. Speaking alternately in French and in patois, she charged them with a message which they were "to deliver to all her people".

On February 11, 1858, at Lourdes, Bernadette Soubirous had a vision. A beautiful lady, clad in white, with a blue belt. Bernadette had 18 visions until July 16.

Thérèse of Lisieux (2 January 1873 – 30 September, 1897) was a French Carmelite nun. She reported on May 13, 1883 that she had seen the Virgin smile at her. She wrote: "Our Blessed Lady has come to me, she has smiled upon me. How happy I am".The date 13 May later became a significant Marian date at Our Lady of Fátima, long after Thérèse's death.

On May 13, 1917, at Fatima, Lucia dos Santos, 12 years old, Francisco Martos, 11 years old, and Jacinta Martos, 7 years old, had a vision. They heard the BlessedVirgin declare that Jesus was much offended by sin. Francisco died on April 4, 1919. Jacinta died on February 20, 1920. Lucia died on February 13, 2005.

The Blessed Virgin Mary been appearing since June 24, 1981 to six Herzegovinian Croat children in Medjugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina (at the time in Yugoslavia) : Vicka Ivanković, Mirijana Dragičević, Marija Pavlović, Ivan Dragičević, Ivanka Ivanković and Jakov Čolo (between 10 and 16 years old).
Many have reported phenomena including the sun spinning in the sky or changing colors and figures such as hearts and crosses around the sun. It is also reported that the Virgin Mary gives messages on the twenty-fifth of every month to Marija Lunetti (Pavlović), as well as on the second of the month to seer Mirjana Soldo (Dragičević).

Comments about visions ?

[outhouse]

The human mind is weak.

Had this been in Iraq, they would be having visions of allah.

Latin countries have been very fascinated with Mary to the point of obsession.


The fact they describe a virgin tells you it is all man made from their imagination based on the translation errors made by the unknown gospel authors.

[Huon]

Had this been in Israel, they would be having visions of Yeshuah.

[Clive]

Two of the examples above are in countries at or recently at war. I don't know about the 1846 or1883 examples but maybe trauma makes it more likely to see visions? Religious belief not also causing trauma but caused by it?

Religious Trauma Syndrome has a very recognizable set of symptoms, a definitive set of causes, and a debilitating cycle of abuse. There are ways to stop the abuse and recover.

Symptoms of Religious Trauma Syndrome:

• Cognitive: Confusion, poor critical thinking ability, negative beliefs about self-ability & self-worth, black & white thinking, perfectionism, difficulty with decision-making

• Emotional: Depression, anxiety, anger, grief, loneliness, difficulty with pleasure, loss of meaning

• Social: Loss of social network, family rupture, social awkwardness, sexual difficulty, behind schedule on developmental tasks

• Cultural: Unfamiliarity with secular world; “fish out of water” feelings, difficulty belonging, information gaps (e.g. evolution, modern art, music)

Causes of Religious Trauma Syndrome:

Authoritarianism coupled with toxic theology which is received and reinforced at church, school, and home results in:

• Suppression of normal child development - cognitive, social, emotional, moral stages are arrested

• Damage to normal thinking and feeling abilities -information is limited and controlled; dysfunctional beliefs taught; independent thinking condemned; feelings condemned

• External locus of control – knowledge is revealed, not discovered; hierarchy of authority enforced; self not a reliable or good source

• Physical and sexual abuse – patriarchal power; unhealthy sexual views; punishment used as for discipline

Cycle of Abuse

The doctrines of original sin and eternal damnation cause the most psychological distress by creating the ultimate double bind. You are guilty and responsible, and face eternal punishment. Yet you have no ability to do anything about it....

http://journeyfree.org/rts/

[PhilosopherJay]

Hi All,

The human brain is not a library. We do not take 16 hours of high quality video and audio each day and put in it on labelled shelves for retrival. Our memories deteriorate very rapidly. Think of the first time you met your spouse or a person very important in your life. If it happened more than 20 years ago, you probably won't be able to recall more than four or five sentences, even if you were talking with that person for five hours. You have to reconstruct or guess about what you talked about to fill in the rest of the time. Check with the person and you might find that most of their memories of that meeting are different and even the five sentences you think you remember do not match. This is the best case scenario for remembering. You probably met a hundred people twenty years ago, in 1994 and you might remember the names of ten of them. You might remember a few sentences that two or three of them said.
It is incredibly easy for people to mix up things they read in books, saw in movies, dreamed about and real things that happened in their past. With some people fiction replaces most of their remembered experiences.
When people have traumatic experiences or take drugs, the process of slowly dissolving memory can happen almost immediately. People can mix up and confuse what happened to them last night or even what happened two minutes before. When that happens we call them false perceptions and memories, and hallucinations.

Lots of people have visions. Tell them to your priest and you might end up a saint. Tell them to a psychiatrist and you might end up in an insane asylum, albeit a prescription for psychotropic drugs is more likely these days.

Nietzsche, in one of his saner moment, said, "Faith doesn't prove anything. A trip to any lunatic asylum will convince you of that."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

[Giuseppe]

Hi folks,

I went to Medjugorje some year ago, joining a group of Catholic pilgrims (and simulating my being Catholic, too).
I attended a mass meeting in front of one of the 6 ''seers''.

I recognize that his hallucination had a ''physical impact'' lasted a few seconds on me (and more time on other persons), even if my approach was totally skeptical and even if I saw nothing (but I did ''feel'' the sharp rise of the wind just when the hallucination of the seer started, and later the present people confirmed the absence of wind at all). As a rationalist, obviously I am the first to take joke of myself after the ''fact''. I can only conclude that the ''seers'' have some kind of ''power''.

Sincerely, I have no intention of repeating that experience

But I would open the question: may the 'facts' of Medjugorje' explain the epistles of Paul?

The first similarity is that in the ''messages'' of Medjugorje there is not reference at all to a Gospel Jesus (even if obiously the 'seers' know the Gospel Jesus).

The second similarity is that the ''Virgin'' is considered more powerful than Jesus himself, second (maybe) only to God.

Now, the 'Virgin' is clearly mythical at all, at least as she is considered in Medjugorje (it makes no sense at all to say for example that the ''seers'' are ''Jesus historicists''). But from the messages alone one may conclude a different theology:

1) In an ancient primordial past, ''something happened'' that set in connection the ''Virgin'' with ''Jesus''.

2) In recent times, the ''Virgin'' is revealed to 6 seers coming down on terra ferma.

3) In the next future, the ''Virgin'' will be more and more engaged in a war against Satan.

Therefore, if similarities are there between Medjugorje and Paul, I may conclude that in Paul:

1) In an ancient primordial past, ''something happened'' that sets in connection Jesus with the ''archons of this eon''.

2) In recent times, the ''Christ Jesus'' is revealed to apostles as Paul, coming down on terra ferma as apparitions.

3) In the next future, the ''Christ Jesus'' will be more and more engaged in a war against Satan.

In particular, I observe that the same apparition assumes the appearance of an angelic being that comes down on terra ferma, even if on a slightly more high position from the ground where are the ''seers''.

My question is: neither Doherty nor Carrier say where Jesus is when he appears to Paul. Maybe they both assume that is Paul who comes up to third heaven, and then there he sees Jesus. But if the contrary happened (Jesus comes down and appears to Paul on this planet) then we have 3 coming down of Jesus: at his death, at his apparition, and at his future parusia.

The first Gospel assumes only two apparitions of Jesus in Israel (under Pilate and in the next future).

Maybe that contradiction can be resolved if you assume that the crucifixion of Jesus was a recent event, too, immediately preceding the apparition at Paul.

Only my modest suggestions.

[theterminator]

The second similarity is that the ''Virgin'' is considered more powerful than Jesus himself, second (maybe) only to God.

the koran seems to be saying that such practices were going on in its time:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.