Does the writing of a gospel count as an anti-Roman action?

[Stuart]

I'm not clear what these words mean:
"... first thrown out is that the concept of the Law requiring sin-free officials to be carried out,...."
Perhaps rephrase?

Everyone knows PRC officials are corrupt. The CCP does not want that to be an impediment in any way to their executing the law as they see fit. Such a qualification is seen as anti-CCP, which cannot be tolerated.

China has many dystopian elements. One of which is the low trust society, the other is extreme classism. It is considered bad to help somebody of a lower class than you, as that associates you with their level. So Jesus helping a prostitute is unacceptable in Xi's China.

[Stuart]

Every cult in Rome claimed it was the true one and others worshipped false or lesser gods and their prayers would not be heard. Christianity and Judaism were no different.

There is a lot of evidence from the Decia persecution era documents and also Diocletian, that Christians and Pagans lived next door to each other and got along well enough, that many Pagans would carry out the sacrifice in the name of their Christian neighbor so they didn't have to. The myth of separation is false.

[Giuseppe]

Every cult in Rome claimed it was the true one and others worshipped false or lesser gods and their prayers would not be heard. Christianity and Judaism were no different.

a rather strong claim. Usually it is said that Polytheism is tolerant while the religious wars are always provoked by monotheistic religions.

[Ulan]

Isn't the use of the Danielic prophecy in Mark 13 sufficient to prove that the Roman rule, as the last material kingdom, had to be destroyed also just as the kingdoms that preceded it?

Yes, at its core, the "good news" was that the destruction of the Roman Empire by the army of God was imminent, as witnessed in the "small apocalypses" of some gospels. The triumphal entry into Jerusalem was another hint into that direction. The death penalty and the stated reason on the sign were apt.

That the gospels in the form we know them took on a very soft stance towards Rome is certainly true. Certainly understandable, as not everyone wanted to follow JC's example and get executed. The message shifted somewhat when Jews became very unpopular in the Roman Empire. Prophecies always get adapted after they inevitably failed.

[John2]

Curious also about the views of the other users of the forum

The belief in a Messiah-figure in the first century CE seems anti-Roman to me, so I would consider any writings from that time that espouse this belief to be "anti-Roman," in the sense that it was hoped that the world would be run by a Messiah-figure instead of by Rome (i.e., that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable Earth," as Josephus put it).

One way around this for Josephus (and Rabbinic Judaism) was to apply this idea to Vespasian, but Jesus is presented as saying that he was (or would become in a heavenly form after his death) Daniel's "son of man" figure, and this figure is described as being given "dominion, glory, and kingship,that the people of every nation and language should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, that will not pass away" (Dan. 7:14), in contrast to the status quo in 1 John 2:16-17, 1 Cor. 7:31 and Mk. 14:61-62:

For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not from the Father but from the world. The world is passing away, along with its desires; but whoever does the will of God remains forever.

For this world in its present form is passing away.

Again the high priest questioned him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”

“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

So yes, I'd say that the gospels (and the rest of the NT) are anti-Roman in this sense, because while they may support the status quo for the time being (e.g., 1 Peter 2 and Rom. 13), they expect the status quo (which at that time was Roman) to soon change when Jesus comes to Earth in the form of a heavenly being.

[Giuseppe]

So yes, I'd say that the gospels (and the rest of the NT) are anti-Roman in this sense

For mythicism (i.e. assuming that the first gospel euhemerized a deity on the earth), this means that not only the first gospel is a lie, but it is a deliberate lie, i.e. designed to be a subversive (not seditious) anti-Roman propaganda.

In short, David Skrbina's Antagonism Thesis explains perfectly the birth of the first gospel.

[andrewcriddle]

I'm not clear what these words mean:
"... first thrown out is that the concept of the Law requiring sin-free officials to be carried out,...."
Perhaps rephrase?

Everyone knows PRC officials are corrupt. The CCP does not want that to be an impediment in any way to their executing the law as they see fit. Such a qualification is seen as anti-CCP, which cannot be tolerated.

China has many dystopian elements. One of which is the low trust society, the other is extreme classism. It is considered bad to help somebody of a lower class than you, as that associates you with their level. So Jesus helping a prostitute is unacceptable in Xi's China.

It would seem more straightforward to simply omit this pericope on the (correct) ground that most early manuscripts of John do not contain it.

Andrew Criddle

[Stuart]

I'm not clear what these words mean:
"... first thrown out is that the concept of the Law requiring sin-free officials to be carried out,...."
Perhaps rephrase?

Everyone knows PRC officials are corrupt. The CCP does not want that to be an impediment in any way to their executing the law as they see fit. Such a qualification is seen as anti-CCP, which cannot be tolerated.

China has many dystopian elements. One of which is the low trust society, the other is extreme classism. It is considered bad to help somebody of a lower class than you, as that associates you with their level. So Jesus helping a prostitute is unacceptable in Xi's China.

It would seem more straightforward to simply omit this pericope on the (correct) ground that most early manuscripts of John do not contain it.

Andrew Criddle

The CCP is not that smart. They don't know Biblical Greek either. It's race based a totalitarian state. They think very differently.