Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come From?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by Stephan Huller »

Here is a good summary from Robert Laynton about the position we find ourselves in:
The Apostle Paul and the Gospels Nowhere in Paul's letters does he quote from any of the four gospels and neither does he refer to any earlier gospel that may have preceded them. This may be because the gospels were not yet written or at least not in any sort of wide circulation in the churches. But similarly, the gospels do not mention Paul's writings, ending as they do at the death and resurrection of Jesus.
This is another good point to consider (even if it probably isn't Laynton's point). Why if Paul wrote first and Luke wrote on the authority of Paul, why doesn't Luke quote or cite his master in a way that declares to the Pauline world - 'I write this in the name of or under the authority of Paul.' Rappers do this when they appear or have other rappers appear on their records - i.e. 'here is so and so' 'I am so and so' 'this is so and so's record but I am on it' etc. It is curious the manner that Luke would have written a gospel for or on behalf of Paul but really used 'Mark' who had little or nothing to do with Paul and then doesn't say 'this Luke y'all with a shout out to my homeboy Paul, holla Antioch.' How is a repurposing a gospel written by Mark on behalf of Peter accurately reflect representin' Paul in such a way that Paul's audience and churches would immediately accept this repurposing. It's beyond baffling when you walk through it step by step.

While we all take the claim that Luke wrote the gospel for Paul at face value because everyone says it so many times, the idea that Luke could have written a gospel on behalf of Paul after he died by stealing someone else composition - or that of a rival church - and also Hebrews (according to many Church Fathers) is beyond weird and incomprehensible. Paul has to say 'my homie Luke' it's my gospel (or be made to say so) while he was my life. He simply has to in order to get anyone to believe this forgery.
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by TedM »

Stephan Huller wrote:But how can you be sure that Tertullian is NOT saying what he COULD BE saying? This is the most baffling part of your analysis.
I can't be sure but I've given you several likelihoods, all which are fairly strong individually. When you put them together they convince me that I'm right and your evidence is weak. Recap:
1. attribution to Paul of 1st quote, no attribution to Paul in the second (ie no 'Paul says' as in the first one)
2. use of the word 'remember'
3. usage of Matthew and not Luke

Together these -- to my way of thinking -- make your hypothesis as it pertains to Tertullian unlikely.

AND THEN YOU KEEP STATING (to the effect) 'I can't let you say this Stephan because then it means you might be right about Marcion.' But one has nothing to do with another in the grand scheme of things.
it has everything to do with Marcion. Be a bit more honest please.
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by TedM »

Stephan Huller wrote: Why if Paul wrote first and Luke wrote on the authority of Paul, why doesn't Luke quote or cite his master in a way that declares to the Pauline world - 'I write this in the name of or under the authority of Paul.'
because GLuke wasn't based on Paul's teachings -- Jesus' life having preceded Paul himself, at least not very much--with the exception of what he says about Paul in Acts.
While we all take the claim that Luke wrote the gospel for Paul at face value because everyone says it so many times
I've never even considered GLuke to have anything much to do with Paul. What the hell did Paul know about Jesus' life? And we can see Paul didn't really care much about Jesus ministry..why are you so baffled when it is so obvious? Do you not know what Paul's gospel message was yet?

The reason you are so baffled is because you keep buying into this written gospel of Paul nonsense.
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by outhouse »

Stephan Huller wrote:Why if Paul wrote first and Luke wrote on the authority of Paul, why doesn't Luke quote or cite his master in a way that declares to the Pauline world - 'I write this in the name of or under the authority of Paul.'

.
Because it is rhetoric.

It matches a community of Hellenist who found Pauline traditions valuable without knowing them in any detail. This supports oral traditions of Paul and his importance in the early communities.
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by outhouse »

TedM wrote:
The reason you are so baffled is because you keep buying into this written gospel of Paul nonsense.

There is no reason to think Paul did not have run across small collections of written material. What he possessed is unknown and speculative.

The passion narrative and a few others may go back to within a decade of Jesus death.
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by TedM »

outhouse wrote:
TedM wrote:
The reason you are so baffled is because you keep buying into this written gospel of Paul nonsense.

There is no reason to think Paul did not have run across small collections of written material. What he possessed is unknown and speculative.

The passion narrative and a few others may go back to within a decade of Jesus death.
This I agree with He may well have had some original sayings -- perhaps written by Matthew, and some other things. I have no problem with that, but when Paul writes of his 'gospel' I believe he is referring to his oral preaching message.

I suspect Stephan is hoping this search will lead to a 'true' gospel from Paul that Marcion used and orthodoxy perverted.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by Stephan Huller »

even if I was use Tertullian to find evidence of extraterrestrial life only a blind dogmatist such as yourself would oppose an idea owing to its implication in another context. the facts are the facts whether or not it helps or hinders Marcion.
TedM
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by TedM »

ha ha Stephan. I've been very open-minded on this subject, as I am any subject, but frankly it just didn't take me long to see how weak your position was. I have done my best to explain why I see it that way and you have ignored most of my reasons, and just repeat the same things. reminds me of aa.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by Stephan Huller »

so if I was against something you'd be for it. Deep thinker that you are.
Last edited by Stephan Huller on Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where Did the Idea that Paul Didn't Have a Gospel Come F

Post by outhouse »

TedM wrote:perhaps written by Matthew


.
I don't even go that far.

Its my opinion no Galilean disciple or apostle has any writing what so ever.


The name Matthew is a later Hellenistic attribution.


To me the movement started after death in Hellenistic circles in the Diaspora.
Post Reply